Sid Vicious - undervalued bass innovator?

[MacDaddy]

John Lydon specifically states in his autobiography that the Pistols did not get a soundtrack [size=4] [/size]
[size=4]. [/size]

[size=4]BTW my parents did know Peter Sutcliffe. [/size]

[timmo]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1450212420' post='2930666']
More people knew the Yorkshire Ripper and were listening to The Bee Gees.

[/quote]You stated that more people knew the Yorkshire Ripper right there? No one knew who he was until 1981, so therefore, how would more people know him? If you had written that people knew of a man that was dubbed the Yorkshire Ripper, I would have believed that.
Perhaps I should have written that most of the record buying public would have been aware of who Sid Vicious was in the late 70's,and a good proportion of people who read newspapers and watched the news would have been aware of him.

Edited December 16, 2015 by timmo

[visog]

He had the look and the attitude for Punk but he could barely play and he admitted to throwing a bottle at a gig which blinded a women in one eye. That's before he escalated to murder.

He was really a thug along for the ride - the puppet of McLaren.

So.. I recognise the importance of the Sex Pistols but as an artist in his own right... nah.

(*Although I did quite like his version of 'My Way' in NMTB... probably the only time he actually appeared on a record - singing or playing)

Edited December 16, 2015 by visog

[Highfox]

[quote name='visog' timestamp='1450250594' post='2930855']
He had the look and the attitude for Punk but he could barely play and he admitted to throwing a bottle at a gig which blinded a women in one eye. That's before he escalated to murder.

He was really a thug along for the ride - the puppet of McLaren.

So.. I recognise the importance of the Sex Pistols but as an artist in his own right... nah.

(*Although I did quite like his version of 'My Way' in NMTB... probably the only time he actually appeared on a record - singing or playing)
[/quote]

He sang a few others as well, the solo album Sid Sings (1979) has a few tracks on it. As well as all the live stuff that was reordered and released with Thunders.

[PaulWarning]

Paul Simonon was hired because of his looks when he couldn't play by the Clash look how he turned out, If it wasn't for the Heroin, Nancy Spungden and being a pratt in some parallel universe we could all be discussing what a great bass player Sid is

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1449828749' post='2927205']
Pretty much punk in a nutshell really.
[/quote] sorry Kev can't agree with you on that one, people like Segs Jenkins of the Ruts and Bruce Foxton are great bass players, as I've discovered when trying to learn some of their bass lines

[cheddatom]

Some vicious pedantry in here :-D

[borntohang]

By all accounts he was a pretty unpleasant bloke in the Pistols and the surrounding scene, but I've always felt there were a lot of people egging him on from the sidelines who should take a portion of the blame too.

Think it's easy to forget he was only 20 when he joined up and dead by 21. I did a lot of stupid sh*t when I was younger and although I never stabbed or blinded anyone it's can be amazing what you'll do to impress the cool kids at that age, and that's without the national exposure as a celebrity. If you've got all that pent-up aggression and anger already, and then you're surrounded by a bunch of other tools all daring each other to be controversial (as well as the press; look at Grundy daring them to "say something outrageous") and nobody trying to reign the group in it can spiral downhill very, very quickly.

None of this takes away any of his responsibility for his life choices at all, but I don't think he had much of a chance to start with, and being deemed the figurehead for a youth movement basically sealed his fate. When your parents are actively pushing hard drugs to you as a teenager then the game is rigged from the go. A sad waste of a life.

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='borntohang' timestamp='1450267997' post='2931139']
and then you're surrounded by a bunch of other tools all daring each other to be controversial (as well as the press; look at Grundy daring them to "say something outrageous")
[/quote]

I didn't think The Pistols did anything controversial on the Grundy interview. They were confronted by a lazy, drunk, sexist man and they reacted in a way that any lads from their background would, which is they coated him off.
What is interesting is this most 'outrageous' event was well before Sid's time and fronted by Steve Jones who is one of the major conformists in the band.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Billy Apple

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='visog' timestamp='1450250594' post='2930855']
He had the look and the attitude for Punk but he could barely play and he admitted to throwing a bottle at a gig which blinded a women in one eye.
[/quote]

He was witnessed to have thrown a glass. It was not aimed at the girl deliberately as has been reported. It was intended for The Damned for a perceived slight by Vanian not telling him about an audition. It smashed on a pillar at the front of the 100 Club stage with the fragments hitting the girl.

[quote name='visog' timestamp='1450250594' post='2930855']
That's before he escalated to murder.
[/quote]

Vicious, while arrested, was never tried for the murder of Nancy Spungen. There are accounts of money going missing from the room and a Chelsea hotel resident called Michael who witnesses testified to the NYPD had been seen with a large amount of money bragging he had robbed Sid and Nancy. I'm not saying whether he did or did not kill her, but I believe there is more to this story than meets the eye.

[quote name='visog' timestamp='1450250594' post='2930855']
He was really a thug along for the ride - the puppet of McLaren.
[/quote]

He was actually brought into the band by John Lydon as John was isolated by Steve Jones and Paul Cook.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Billy Apple

[borntohang]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1450270498' post='2931193']
I didn't think The Pistols did anything controversial on the Grundy interview. They were confronted by a lazy, drunk, sexist man and they reacted in a way that any lads from their background would, which is they coated him off.
What is interesting is this most 'outrageous' event was well before Sid's time and fronted by Steve Jones who is one of the major conformists in the band.
[/quote]

Agree with you totally. It was a manufactured outrage and a low effort one at that; the transcript is ridiculously sparse and wouldn't raise an eye today. I'm not sure he even asked a proper question at any point, just talked bollocks.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='borntohang' timestamp='1450278637' post='2931296']
Agree with you totally. It was a manufactured outrage and a low effort one at that; the transcript is ridiculously sparse and wouldn't raise an eye today. I'm not sure he even asked a proper question at any point, just talked bollocks.
[/quote]I think it was the use of the F word on tea time TV that caused the outrage, I think that would happen even today, but at the time it was the perfect storm

[Dan Dare]

I've always understood Steve Jones played the bass parts on the SP records an that SV was just a tailor's dummy for the stage.

[Highfox]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1450286825' post='2931399']
I've always understood Steve Jones played the bass parts on the SP records an that SV was just a tailor's dummy for the stage.
[/quote]
I have heard a few inteviews with Steve Jones and he said that Sid can be heard on Bodies and Holidays and that Glen is playing on Anarchy.. the rest of the bass is jones on NMTB.

[damian]

Matlock played bass on Anarchy in the UK, I believe Jones did the bass on the rest of the album. You can tell the difference, Anarchy has a fluid bassline, all the other songs the bass more or less plays the root notes. If you listen to the sp$nk bootleg Matlock plays pretty tasty basslines on that.
As for Sid...if you watch any of the live shows with him it's obvious he is playing, just very badly, however It's also obvious he's pretty high as well.

[lowdown]

[quote name='visog' timestamp='1450250594' post='2930855']
(*Although I did quite like his version of 'My Way' in NMTB... probably the only time he actually appeared on a record - singing or playing)
[/quote]

I do believe (IIRC) , that if he had lived long enough, he was going to release a cover version of a famous Marvin Gaye tune.....
'WTF's going on'.

Edited December 17, 2015 by lowdown

[Marvin]

Sid was the poster boy of punk and not a lot else. Whether that is sad, unfortunate or other is for individuals to make their own mind up. He never struck me as someone who would make their mark musically say like Foxton or Simonon.

From all the clips of interviews etc he never strikes me as someone you'd want to be in the company of for long. The other thing that always is apparent when the Sex Pistols are discussed is what a manipulative and horid individual McLaren was.

[PaulWarning]

one thing has always struck me as strange if Sid was such a horrible individual how come he was Lydons best mate? who seems to be a reasonable judge of human character

[borntohang]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1450344419' post='2931775']
one thing has always struck me as strange if Sid was such a horrible individual how come he was Lydons best mate? who seems to be a reasonable judge of human character
[/quote]

They were friends from a young age so it's reasonable to assume he wasn't always a git, and by the time the drugs kicked in heavily I think [url="http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/john-lydon-and-his-rotten-past-20150429?page=4"]even Lydon was sick of him[/url].

[quote][b][color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]What do you miss most about Sid?[/font][/color][/b]
[color=#000000][font=freight-text-pro, serif][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]His humor. He was very, very hilarious, sarcastic. He loved to imitate people. And he could really put them down on it 'cause he was very, very good at it. I suppose it's that English comedy thing that he instinctively had, but that all went sour when the drugs came in. The personality changed and shifted in to a selfish, drug-hunting f***er.[/font][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=freight-text-pro, serif][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][b]You described his drug phase as zombie-like in the book.[/b]
Yeah, well, that's my impression of heroin addicts. I don't understand it at all. It kills passion completely. But it also kills fear and nerves, so you're trading one off for the other.[/font][/font][/color]

[b][color=#000000][font=freight-text-pro, serif][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Did you try to stop his addictions?[/font][/font][/color][/b]
[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Tried, yeah, but it was too difficult because his mother was a registered addict. It was like it was written in the cards. Although he would watch [his mom] when he was young, and know that that was the wrong thing, but I think fear took over. I didn't really know how much to tell him anything at all about handling fear and a lack of self-belief and doubt, 'cause I had all those problems myself. I don't suppose I was doing too well at the time[/font][/color][color=#000000][font=freight-text-pro, serif][size=4][size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif].[/font][/size][/size][/font][/color]

[b]How did you work past your own fears?[/b]
We were under an awful lot of pressure, all the time. Just being analyzed, continuously – and wrongfully a lot of the time. There was a lot of hate written, and it all got very much out of control. There was no support for any of us, except trying to support each other, and that didn't work too well. I always thought the management was trying to drive a wedge in between us, because indeed that's exactly what happened with that "us and them" mentality.

[b]In the book, you explained your famous statement at the Pistols' final Seventies concert - "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?" – by saying the band had become a betrayal of what you started out as.[/b]
Yeah, that was directly aimed at the management. The way the band was falling apart, there was no communication with Steve and Paul [Cook, drums]. They just wouldn't talk to me. And likewise, Sid was off in his delusionary frame of mind, and Malcolm was backing that and the whole thing became grotesque. The isolation of it, I tell you, deep loneliness on that American tour for me. But I loved the songs and I loved being onstage. They were just not very interested in doing things properly.[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][/quote][/font][/color]

Edited December 17, 2015 by borntohang

[Nicko]

Although SV wasn't very good, a decent bass player would have ruined most of the Pistols sound. Can you imagine what Bootsy would have played under Anarchy?

[lowdown]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1450372774' post='2932180']
a decent bass player would have ruined most of the Pistols sound
[/quote]

How could anyone ruin that?

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1450372774' post='2932180']
Although SV wasn't very good, a decent bass player would have ruined most of the Pistols sound. Can you imagine what Bootsy would have played under Anarchy?
[/quote]

Glen Matlock was very good - the recordings on sp**k show that, he was very fluid and did a lot of riffs/runs. Gave a much different feel to the songs than the traditional NMTB that we all know and love.

[Highfox]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1450387153' post='2932375']
Glen Matlock was very good - the recordings on sp**k show that, he was very fluid and did a lot of riffs/runs. Gave a much different feel to the songs than the traditional NMTB that we all know and love.
[/quote]
Lozz is right. I think that may of been part of the reason for them getting rid of Glen, too tight, good and musical lol.
Listening back now (after many years) to some of the pistols (old) live performances I'm almost amazed that I didn't notice how much Rottens vocals hold everything together, like it or not he never seemed to forget the lyrics and always gave 100% on delivery. He had pride in what he was doing, could still show a few so called musos's up nowadays.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Highfox' timestamp='1450513967' post='2933438']
Lozz is right. I think that may of been part of the reason for them getting rid of Glen, too tight, good and musical lol.
Listening back now (after many years) to some of the pistols (old) live performances I'm almost amazed that I didn't notice how much Rottens vocals hold everything together, like it or not he never seemed to forget the lyrics and always gave 100% on delivery. He had pride in what he was doing, could still show a few so called musos's up nowadays.
[/quote]I've just listened to Pretty Vacant on the sp**k album, and I know I've got used to the NMTB version but it just doesn't sound as good with the flowery bass line in it

[drTStingray]

I wonder in truth whether the Pistols are any more broadly remembered than, say Brotherhood of Man or the Spice Girls. I very much doubt it apart from amongst devotees of the genre.

Certainly kings of outrageous behaviour (very comical at times) - sad and pretty awful at times.

Innovative bass player - innovative not - bass player - possibly .............

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1450519257' post='2933498']
I wonder in truth whether the Pistols are any more broadly remembered than, say Brotherhood of Man or the Spice Girls. I very much doubt it apart from amongst devotees of the genre.

Certainly kings of outrageous behaviour (very comical at times) - sad and pretty awful at times.

Innovative bass player - innovative not - bass player - possibly .............
[/quote]for the uninitiated the Sex Pistols invented punk and are remembered by the uneducated masses, helped by Mr Rotten's frequent TV appearances on things like I'm a (non) Celebrity and, am I the smarmiest man in the world?, Piers Morgan, as are the Spice Girls, not so sure about Brotherhood of Man though.