Sid Vicious - undervalued bass innovator?

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1450519257' post='2933498']


Certainly kings of outrageous behaviour (very comical at times) - sad and pretty awful at times.


[/quote]

I think it's forgotten now, that as part of his 'act', Rotten would actually throw up, on stage.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1450523340' post='2933542']
I think it's forgotten now, that as part of his 'act', Rotten would actually throw up, on stage.
[/quote]
Who was the poor sod in each venue that had to clean it up?

[drTStingray]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1450520461' post='2933510']
for the uninitiated the Sex Pistols invented punk and are remembered by the uneducated masses, helped by Mr Rotten's frequent TV appearances on things like I'm a (non) Celebrity and, am I the smarmiest man in the world?, Piers Morgan, as are the Spice Girls, not so sure about Brotherhood of Man though.
[/quote]

I would doubt anyone who was over 18 in the mid/late 70s would NOT remember Brotherhood of Man - frighteningly middle of the road, but sold millions of records and won the Eurovision Song Contest.

Punk seemed a bit of a flash in the pan to me and replaced by more musical stuff a couple of years later. I went to a punk gig at a club in Birmingham around that time and not only did it have relentless gobbling between the bands and the audience, great energy and anger but they also pumped the smell of cellulose thinners through the aircon system and showed porn on the tv monitors!!

To be honest I much preferred a couple of performances by Dr Feelgood at the same place - no gobbling, cellulose thinners or lame histrionics but as much if not more energy and aggression and a damned sight more musical in my mind, despite it also being fairly simplistic.

I always thought the Pistols were just another arm of the Westwood/McClaren empire and I really wonder whether they qualify for the moneca of inventors of a genre. They were certainly the most famous of the time.

Edited December 19, 2015 by drTStingray

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1450523340' post='2933542']
I think it's forgotten now, that as part of his 'act', Rotten would actually throw up, on stage.
[/quote]

I've never heard that and know people saw them and worked with them. Any evidence?

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1450526309' post='2933590']
I would doubt anyone who was over 18 in the mid/late 70s would NOT remember Brotherhood of Man - frighteningly middle of the road, but sold millions of records and won the Eurovision Song Contest.

Punk seemed a bit of a flash in the pan to me and replaced by more musical stuff a couple of years later. I went to a punk gig at a club in Birmingham around that time and not only did it have relentless gobbling between the bands and the audience, great energy and anger but they also pumped the smell of cellulose thinners through the aircon system and showed porn on the tv monitors!!

To be honest I much preferred a couple of performances by Dr Feelgood at the same place - no gobbling, cellulose thinners or lame histrionics but as much if not more energy and aggression and a damned sight more musical in my mind, despite it also being fairly simplistic.

I always thought the Pistols were just another arm of the Westwood/McClaren empire and I really wonder whether they qualify for the moneca of inventors of a genre. They were certainly the most famous of the time.
[/quote]having to learn early punk stuff for the band I play in a lot of it is very musical, don't forget a lot of the bands that jumped on the band wagon had been around for a few years and could actually play a bit, Stranglers, SLF, Penetration, The Ruts and the like, it was when other bands appeared that believed the hype that 'you didn't need to know how to play' that it got messy, very messy.
Yes the Pistols didn't invent punk, but Joe Public thinks they did, listening to Anarchy in the UK now it sounds like a run of the mill rock song with sneering vocals

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1450523340' post='2933542']
I think it's forgotten now, that as part of his 'act', Rotten would actually throw up, on stage.
[/quote]I've heard this as well, I suspect he did it once because he was ill and then the McClaren media machine leapt into action, I'm sure I remember reading that somewhere

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1450526980' post='2933606']
Anarchy in the UK now it sounds like a run of the mill rock song with sneering vocals
[/quote]

Captain Sensible described his first hearing of Anarchy In The UK as sounding like Led Zeppelin with old man Steptoe singing.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1450526980' post='2933606']
having to learn early punk stuff for the band I play in a lot of it is very musical, don't forget a lot of the bands that jumped on the band wagon had been around for a few years and could actually play a bit, Stranglers, SLF, Penetration, The Ruts and the like, it was when other bands appeared that believed the hype that 'you didn't need to know how to play' that it got messy, very messy.
Yes the Pistols didn't invent punk, but Joe Public thinks they did, listening to Anarchy in the UK now it sounds like a run of the mill rock song with sneering vocals
[/quote]

Yeah precisely - and the Stranglers and others were very good bands. I guess the Pistols were just the most outrageous and assisted if not directed by McClaren, got a handful of massive PR exposures which gave them notoriety.

Bands like MC5 predated also with outrageous vocals against a rock setting.

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1450526839' post='2933601']
I've never heard that and know people saw them and worked with them. Any evidence?
[/quote]
As Lydon charted the early part of his childhood, featured in his new book Anger is my Energy: My Life Uncensored,there was a surprising vulnerability about a man known more for puking on stage in the 70s punk era



Read more: http://www.gloucestershireecho.co.uk/Cheltenham-Literature-Festival-punk-rocker-John/story-23110650-detail/story.html#ixzz3uoxSmN58

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1450575562' post='2934059']
As Lydon charted the early part of his childhood, featured in his new book Anger is my Energy: My Life Uncensored,there was a surprising vulnerability about a man known more for puking on stage in the 70s punk era



Read more: [url="http://www.gloucestershireecho.co.uk/Cheltenham-Literature-Festival-punk-rocker-John/story-23110650-detail/story.html#ixzz3uoxSmN58"]http://www.glouceste...l#ixzz3uoxSmN58[/url]
[/quote]

Well, the article says 'a man known for' much as it may be apocryphal. Just a legend that has grown around something like all Rickenbackers are sh*te while not actually being true.

I've got the book and don't recall reading it in there. Now I'm going to have to go over it again as clearly something is wrong on the internet!

[Cato]

I remember reading many years ago that one of the Ramones ( pretty sure it was Johnny) used to perform with a bucket by his feet in the early years because he regularly vomited through stage fright. ( although I just ran a few Google searches & couldn't find any references to this on line).

Apparently the Ramones love of curry stemmed from the discovery that it seemed to settle his stomach.

Maybe the stories have become confused with Johnny Rotten at some point?

[Doctor J]

[quote name='Nicko' timestamp='1450372774' post='2932180']
Although SV wasn't very good, a decent bass player would have ruined most of the Pistols sound. Can you imagine what Bootsy would have played under Anarchy?
[/quote] I can't and I'd love to see the auditionees who were deemed so unsuitable as to make Bootsy seem like the man for the gig.

The best bass player is the most appropriate bass player for the part. They may not be the [i]best[/i] bass player in any other circumstances, but what fits best is what's best and that's often not what's most technically or melodically accomplished.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Doctor J' timestamp='1450611059' post='2934234']
I can't and I'd love to see the auditionees who were deemed so unsuitable as to make Bootsy seem like the man for the gig.

The best bass player is the most appropriate bass player for the part. They may not be the [i]best[/i] bass player in any other circumstances, but what fits best is what's best and that's often not what's most technically or melodically accomplished.
[/quote]

However unless it was The Osmonds or the Partridge Family for instance, it would be customary for the bass player to be able to play, unless the bass was to be used as a stage prop.

There are several quotes in this thread which are truly hilarious - Bristol Johnny at a time when Philly soul singer Johnny Bristol was riding high in the charts........ and the Led Zeppelin with Albert Steptoe singing is also great .......... However for me, talking about Zeppelin and the Pistols in the same breath is like doing the same with Chopin and Bobby Crush (sorry Bobby) - an outrage.

They sounded more like Chris Spedding to me (but with Albert Steptoe singing).

You will have guessed I think they were truly sh*te and over hyped by a wicked PR machine - they certainly released a seminal album and did wholesale anarchy before the Young Ones and Bottom - but the latter were actually good!!!!

Jaco was far more a punk (though a jazz one) -These guys were vomiting and gobbing yobs first and foremost!!

Edited December 20, 2015 by drTStingray

[Highfox]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1450617251' post='2934303']
However unless it was The Osmonds or the Partridge Family for instance, it would be customary for the bass player to be able to play, unless the bass was to be used as a stage prop.

There are several quotes in this thread which are truly hilarious - Bristol Johnny at a time when Philly soul singer Johnny Bristol was riding high in the charts........ and the Led Zeppelin with Albert Steptoe singing is also great .......... However for me, talking about Zeppelin and the Pistols in the same breath is like doing the same with Chopin and Bobby Crush (sorry Bobby) - an outrage.

They sounded more like Chris Spedding to me (but with Albert Steptoe singing).

You will have guessed I think they were truly sh*te and over hyped by a wicked PR machine - they certainly released a seminal album and did wholesale anarchy before the Young Ones and Bottom - but the latter were actually good!!!!

Jaco was far more a punk (though a jazz one) -These guys were vomiting and gobbing yobs first and foremost!!
[/quote]
I think that's exactly the kind of response they were looking for.... even nearly 40 years later.
Maybe the social movement (sub culture) the Pistols had with a lot of the youth might be lost on you, they were certainly a voice for the young workingclass at the time. Zeppelin may or may not of connected like that in the late 60's early 70's I don't know about that I'm too young and wasn't there . But I was for the Pistols.
The pistols may not of been great musicians but I'd say Lydon's lyrical content is a masterpiece of the times.. not sure Dylan could even get close! Like most things in life you either get it or don't.
They changed the whole live music scean in London almost over night.. Maybe form the UK the Beatles were the last group before them to have had that kind of impact.
Maybe I'm talking B#llocks, but that's how I (see) saw it.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Highfox

[steve-bbb]

underrated innovator?

personally i always thought of him as a bit of a gobby chancer

[upside downer]

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1450639069' post='2934528']
underrated innovator?

personally i always thought of him as a bit of a gobby chancer


[/quote]

The underrated innovator line in this topic was tongue in cheek, probably should've made that clearer. Still, the usual half-truths of Sex Pistols' folklore remain intact in some of the comments. Someone else playing bass backstage? Nah, if Sid was particularly bad on any given night they'd just turn his amp off. Quite innovative, really! Fella could play in a Dee Dee Ramone root note style. Viv Albertine of The Slits stated he learnt the whole of the Ramones' first album in one night whilst off his head on speed. There are bootlegs of him playing adequately enough to get by and some of him being total crap, most of those are down to him being strung out on heroin.

Rotten did gob on stage a lot, something he puts down to his childhood meningitis illness and the constant need to hack something up. Up to you if you wanna believe that. He still spits onstage today when he performs with PiL. Siouxsie Sioux said she'd never seen a frontman blow his nose into a handkerchief on stage until she saw John. The vomiting myth is something the band were supposed to have done at a Dutch airport once but that was a phony story put about by probably McLaren. He briefly managed the New York Dolls some years before and guitarist Johnny Thunders did actually ralph at an airport once so it's likely that story was borrowed to keep the outrage/bullshit up.

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='upside downer' timestamp='1450640901' post='2934553']

most of those are down to him being strung out on heroin.
[/quote]

Anita O'Day managed it like a pro when she was off her tits

Guess he was just being lazy then ;-)

[bonnp]

everyone knew who sid vicious when i was at school, alter, he became an even bigger icon to a some people.sure he was not a talented player but as he was from my era i would rather listen to the pistols occasionally than the boring dross spewed out by some of the multi talented bass players that people rave about, or the mega boring set lists that are always played at some gigs.

[bonnp]

[quote name='Highfox' timestamp='1450637221' post='2934514']
I think that's exactly the kind of response they were looking for.... even nearly 40 years later.
Maybe the social movement (sub culture) the Pistols had with a lot of the youth might be lost on you, they were certainly a voice for the young workingclass at the time. Zeppelin may or may not of connected like that in the late 60's early 70's I don't know about that I'm too young and wasn't there . But I was for the Pistols.
The pistols may not of been great musicians but I'd say Lydon's lyrical content is a masterpiece of the times.. not sure Dylan could even get close! Like most things in life you either get it or don't.
They changed the whole live music scean in London almost over night.. Maybe form the UK the Beatles were the last group before them to have had that kind of impact.
Maybe I'm talking B#llocks, but that's how I (see) saw it.
[/quote] Well said, your not talking bollox, some people just did not get it. or missed it

[colgraff]

The Sex Pistols were the One Direction of their day. By which I mean that they were a manufactured (boy) band who meant everything to their target audience and very, very little to anyone else.

That isn't an insult, if you think about.

[upside downer]

[quote name='colgraff' timestamp='1450643426' post='2934581']
band who meant everything to their target audience and very, very little to anyone else.

[/quote]

You could say that about absolutely anyone.

[colgraff]

[quote name='upside downer' timestamp='1450644136' post='2934590']
You could say that about absolutely anyone.
[/quote]

Um, you took the noun out of my sentence. That rather kills the context. The point I was making is that they were a triumph of marketing over musicality, which still isn't an insult unless you really want it to be.

[drTStingray]

Working class heroes - well maybe in the eyes of the NME and music journos. Where did this luducrous idea there wasn't a gobbing fest come from? They all did it!! Bad chest my arse!! In reality many of the working class of the time were down night clubs dancing their hot pants and flares off to disco and soul - Johnny Bristol, T Connection, Chic and the like - or seeing the ELO who were absolutely huge at the time.

It's not as if this was Merseybeat or something - you'd have more chance of seeing the 2 tone post skinheads than punks on the street (unless you were around the Westwood/McClaren manor). They were even banned from playing in places by most councils!

Edited December 20, 2015 by drTStingray

[bonnp]

i was 16 around the time the pistols appeared and there were loads of punks and skins around, loads of gobbing at every gig, but the soul generation were a bit older where i was (love 70s soul now), 2 tone was later though, we had migrated to being skinheads and i went to see the specials in leamington around 1981, i remember hall anouncing their new single ghost town,

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1450617251' post='2934303']
talking about Zeppelin and the Pistols in the same breath is like doing the same with Chopin and Bobby Crush (sorry Bobby) - an outrage.
[/quote]

Why? Heavy riffs and drums with wailing vocals. Not so different.