EssentialTension Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) [quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1450617251' post='2934303'] ... However for me, talking about Zeppelin and the Pistols in the same breath is like doing the same with Chopin and Bobby Crush (sorry Bobby) - an outrage ... [/quote] Jimmy Page liked The Pistols, and The Damned ... [url="http://ultimateclassicrock.com/jimmy-page-sex-pistols/"]http://ultimateclass...ge-sex-pistols/[/url] Edited December 21, 2015 by EssentialTension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 The vast majority of the music buying / gig going audience are non musicians... They don't care how difficult something is to play, or how cleverly arranged it is, a large percentage aren't even that bothered about what it sounds like... For alot of people (especially the younger generation).The music people like (and just as importantly the music they want others to see them liking) is a fashion / lifestyle choice and the style is definitely more important than the substance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colgraff Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1450695785' post='2934876'] The music people like (and just as importantly the music they want others to see them liking) is a fashion / lifestyle choice and the style is definitely more important than the substance. [/quote] +1. 'twas ever thus with the caveat that substance was also important in that the substance spoke to you on an intuitive level, thus helping you identify with other fans, so mutually defining your social group. Edited December 21, 2015 by colgraff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1450695785' post='2934876'] The vast majority of the music buying / gig going audience are non musicians... They don't care how difficult something is to play, or how cleverly arranged it is, a large percentage aren't even that bothered about what it sounds like... For alot of people (especially the younger generation).The music people like (and just as importantly the music they want others to see them liking) is a fashion / lifestyle choice and the style is definitely more important than the substance. [/quote] Sometimes non-muso people don't care what genre something falls into and they are quite capable of liking The Sex Pistols and The Bee Gees etc. Sometimes that is even true for musos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1450696967' post='2934886'] Sometimes non-muso people don't care what genre something falls into and they are quite capable of liking The Sex Pistols and The Bee Gees etc. Sometimes that is even true for musos. [/quote] Yep - my fave band are The Sex Pistols, but in my CDs I have Motorhead, Abba, Stormtroopers of Death, Fats Domino, The Drifters, WASP etc etc. Not fussed about genres, if my ears like, they like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) The Pistols music didn't have any less substance than Elvis, Cochran or any other hit artist with a three minute three chord pop song. Where the Pistols did stand out was Lydon's lyricism. His work with The Pistols and subsequently with PIL is IMHO untouchable. The guy is inventive and original and has worked with some great musicians. Steve Jones became a highly respected session player and is reported to be one of the best rhythm guitarists around. Anyway, here's Steve rocking it up with Iggy on Letterman http://youtu.be/QZT0Pw-2Rrk Edited December 21, 2015 by Billy Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buff Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 What's the chances Sidney made more kids wanna play the bass than Jaco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upside downer Posted December 21, 2015 Author Share Posted December 21, 2015 [quote name='colgraff' timestamp='1450643426' post='2934581'] The Sex Pistols were the One Direction of their day. By which I mean that they were a manufactured (boy) band who meant everything to their target audience and very, very little to anyone else. That isn't an insult, if you think about. [/quote] [quote name='upside downer' timestamp='1450644136' post='2934590'] You could say that about absolutely anyone. [/quote] [quote name='colgraff' timestamp='1450646428' post='2934609'] Um, you took the noun out of my sentence. That rather kills the context. The point I was making is that they were a triumph of marketing over musicality, which still isn't an insult unless you really want it to be. [/quote] I think every band or act in the history of pop music has had various levels of manufacturing going on. 'Wear this', 'Sing that', 'Pout into this camera', 'Punch that journalist'. The punk bands were not immune to this manipulation either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upside downer Posted December 21, 2015 Author Share Posted December 21, 2015 [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1450699379' post='2934914'] The Pistols music didn't have any less substance than Elvis, Cochran or any other hit artist with a three minute three chord pop song. Where the Pistols did stand out was Lydon's lyricism. His work with The Pistols and subsequently with PIL is IMHO untouchable. The guy is inventive and original and has worked with some great musicians. Steve Jones became a highly respected session player and is reported to be one of the best rhythm guitarists around. [media]http://youtu.be/QZT0Pw-2Rrk[/media] [/quote] Spot on. Some people get too hung up on the whole 'meaning of punk' nonsense. There was some real great pop music done by some of those guys. And a lot of sh*t too. Just like any other era/genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colgraff Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I like to think that I was clear that I was in no way denigrating manufactured bands. I was dragged, a few years back, to a Girls Aloud concert as moral support for a friend who was escorting his daughter and her friends. We sat there with jaundiced weariness enshrouding us as the lights went down but I have to say that it was far and away the best show I have seen. The level of professionalism was irreproachable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 [quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1450653810' post='2934688'] Working class heroes - well maybe in the eyes of the NME and music journos. Where did this luducrous idea there wasn't a gobbing fest come from? They all did it!! Bad chest my arse!! In reality many of the working class of the time were down night clubs dancing their hot pants and flares off to disco and soul - Johnny Bristol, T Connection, Chic and the like - or seeing the ELO who were absolutely huge at the time. It's not as if this was Merseybeat or something - you'd have more chance of seeing the 2 tone post skinheads than punks on the street (unless you were around the Westwood/McClaren manor). They were even banned from playing in places by most councils! [/quote] I was born in 1981 so obviously wasn't around at the time, but I've picked up the impression from a few old punks that the Pistols and their ilk were part of a fairly cliquey, arty, high fashion scene that only small circles were close to. The same people reckoned that when bands with a larger working class following (like Sham '69) emerged, they were almost regarded as a bit déclassé, even embarrassing, by the "scene" punks. Does that sound somewhere close to what was going on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1450737826' post='2935444'] The same people reckoned that when bands with a larger working class following (like Sham '69) emerged, they were almost regarded as a bit déclassé, even embarrassing, by the "scene" punks. Does that sound somewhere close to what was going on? [/quote] You'd be hard pressed to find a bunch with more impeccable working class credentials as The Sex Pistols. John Lydon started life in a one room tenement in North London, moving later to a council flat in Finsbury Park. His Dad was a journeyman crane driver with John sometimes joining him as he moved about the country. Steve Jones was an illiterate petty thief who slept in the same room as his Mum and step Dad in Shepherds Bush. His parents greatest contribution was teaching him how to steal from a young age. Paul Cook was council estate working class, the poshest of the lot was Glen Matlock who seemed to have a very ordinary upbringing in Crystal Palace. Sham 69 on the other hand hail from leafy Hersham in Surrey. There name comes from graffiti that read Walton and Hersham '69 when the footy team won the Athenian league. The Cockney Rejects who are undoubtedly hard-core thugs from the East End parodied Sham '69's tomfoolery with the Greatest Cockney Rip-Off. Any-hoo, here's an interview with Steve Jones which I think pretty honest about how things came about... [media]http://youtu.be/AXoba6T2fTc[/media] Edited December 21, 2015 by Billy Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1450741772' post='2935498'] You'd be hard pressed to find a bunch with more impeccable working class credentials as The Sex Pistols. John Lydon started life in a one room tenement in North London, moving later to a council flat in Finsbury Park. His Dad was a journeyman crane driver with John sometimes joining him as he moved about the country. Steve Jones was an illiterate petty thief who slept in the same room as his Mum and step Dad in Shepherds Bush. His parents greatest contribution was teaching him how to steal from a young age. Paul Cook was council estate working class, the poshest of the lot was Glen Matlock who seemed to have a very ordinary upbringing in Crystal Palace. Sham 69 on the other hand hail from leafy Hersham in Surrey. There name comes from graffiti that read Walton and Hersham '69 when the footy team won the Athenian league. The Cockney Rejects who are undoubtedly hard-core thugs from the East End parodied Sham '69's tomfoolery with the Greatest Cockney Rip-Off. [/quote] I'm not talking so much about whether the artists were working class but more who their following was. The particular old punk I heard rambling on about these things was suggesting that it was really the next wave of bands after the Pistols who caught on in a big way with the kids on the estates across England- the guys who had almost more of a football style fandom, and some of those bands could indeed be viewed as a bit naff and populist. He may have been full of it, it just seemed like a perspective I hadn't seen so much of. Edited December 22, 2015 by Beer of the Bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1450742861' post='2935506'] was suggesting that it was really the next wave of bands after the Pistols who caught on in a big way with the kids on the estates across England [/quote] Maybe, but after the first wave the whole thing became much more splintered into Oi/New Wave/Post Punk/Anarco Punk/ etc etc etc. There were factions and rivalries everywhere, but I don't think it's possible to put these into class bands as there were so many anomalies. In Newcastle there were serious rows between the veggie anarcho punks dislike of studded leather jackets on Discharge fans. And the Discharge punks loathing of the Exploited Barmy Army punks or punx. And the Exploited lot hating the Dead Kennedy's lot for being clever or something. And round and round it went Edited December 22, 2015 by Billy Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnp Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1450737826' post='2935444'] I was born in 1981 so obviously wasn't around at the time, but I've picked up the impression from a few old punks that the Pistols and their ilk were part of a fairly cliquey, arty, high fashion scene that only small circles were close to. The same people reckoned that when bands with a larger working class following (like Sham '69) emerged, they were almost regarded as a bit déclassé, even embarrassing, by the "scene" punks. Does that sound somewhere close to what was going on? [/quote] No,not to my knowledge at all, never when they were around, we followed the pistols and the "hangers on" were all seen as part of it, nobody really knew that much or even understood where they had originated from until much later,in hindsight looking at them now, Siousie and the others you would certainly think that, but not at the time or it just went over our heads.but it was over before we knew it,barely over a year before the mk2 pistols/mclaren carried on, pistols for punks at the time were never seen as embarrassing,i think a lot of people read about them and their "beginnings" after the event and make judgments years later, which although mostly correct now were never thought of that way at the time. Sham 69 were great to see but scary gigs at times, but i never spoke to anyone who compared them to pistols because of their roots, we just moved on with the latest "punk" band to hit the headlines, but we were young.Sham did it for me when they produced hersham boys, even as young uns we thought it was crap, at the time we were just as interested in the punk/skin image, When the pistols started they took the country (youth) by storm if u was a certain age, as we had never seen anything like it, i remember comparing lyrics with me mates but never where people came from, the 70s was some era, looking back some of it was sh*te but bloody exciting at the time, the pistols were obviously limited in their ability but they influenced loads of bands and for me was miles better to listen to, become a part of than the preceeding 70s, 60s rock, soul, funk stuff that was around, ironic that i love 7s soul, funk, disco now, lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1450743931' post='2935515'] Maybe, but after the first wave the whole thing became much more splintered into Oi/New Wave/Post Punk/Anarco Punk/ etc etc etc. There were factions and rivalries everywhere, but I don't think it's possible to put these into class bands as there were so many anomalies. In Newcastle there were serious rows between the veggie anarcho punks dislike of studded leather jackets on Discharge fans. And the Discharge punks loathing of the Exploited Barmy Army punks or punx. And the Exploited lot hating the Dead Kennedy's lot for being clever or something. And round and round it went [/quote] This is exactly what went on in the metal scene (although on a much smaller scale than punk obviously) when I was still young enough to be part of a scene... For people supposed to be into "alternative" music the bitching between the various subtly different sub generes was unbelievable. Edited December 22, 2015 by CamdenRob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 [quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1450770568' post='2935588'] This is exactly what went on in the metal scene (although on a much smaller scale than punk obviously) when I was still young enough to be part of a scene... For people supposed to be into "alternative" music the bitching between the various subtly different sub generes was unbelievable. [/quote] I've seen some terrible rucks between Goths. Handbags and nail polish everywhere! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 old thread revival alert, 39 years ago today Sid played the drugs once too often, and I was watching John Lydon on needle time this very morning (recorded) had some nice things to say about Steve Jones and Paul Cook's playing, confirmed Glen Matlock liked pop a bit too much and didn't get the irony on his lyrics (and Steve Jones didn't know what they were). Back to Sid, I don't think he was as bad as the publicity made him out to be, just played root notes but that's what Steve Jones played on most of the Pistols songs after Matlock got the sack, McClaren also made a big thing of the fact that none of them could play, which is obviously not true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDaveTheBass Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 15/12/2015 at 20:47, EssentialTension said: More people knew the Yorkshire Ripper and were listening to The Bee Gees. I never knew that Peter Sutcliffe played bass for the Bee Gees - I suppose he had the hair and beard for it though! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upside downer Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 5 hours ago, PaulWarning said: old thread revival alert, 39 years ago today Sid played the drugs once too often, and I was watching John Lydon on needle time this very morning (recorded) had some nice things to say about Steve Jones and Paul Cook's playing, confirmed Glen Matlock liked pop a bit too much and didn't get the irony on his lyrics (and Steve Jones didn't know what they were). Back to Sid, I don't think he was as bad as the publicity made him out to be, just played root notes but that's what Steve Jones played on most of the Pistols songs after Matlock got the sack, McClaren also made a big thing of the fact that none of them could play, which is obviously not true. He could play rudimentary bass, bootlegs bear that out. I've no doubt that if he could've got off of the skag and settled down with domestic goddess-in-waiting Nancy Spungen we'd be mentioning his name alongside Jaco now. Probably 😵 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreek Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Probably going to get shot down for this but I'm not convinced that Sid made any contribution to Bass. Yes, he played with The Sex Pistols but was more a showman than a performer/musician, ask the layman on the street what instrument he played, I bet very few would actually know. I think unless they were actually into Punk many would confuse Sid with John, thinking that he was the lead singer, as he did sing on "My Way". Secondly, though JJB and Paul Simonon are often quoted, I don't think I've heard anybody cite Sid as the reason they started playing Bass. I believe Sid's contribution to music was more symbolic, somebody who you could identify, or identify with, somebody who represented the Punk movement rather than contributed to the Music, perhaps in the same way as Malcolm McLaren and Vivian Westwood can be associated with Punk. The Face of Punk possibly....innovator of Bass??? Naaaaa 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 8 minutes ago, TheGreek said: Probably going to get shot down for this but I'm not convinced that Sid made any contribution to Bass. Yes, he played with The Sex Pistols but was more a showman than a performer/musician, ask the layman on the street what instrument he played, I bet very few would actually know. I think unless they were actually into Punk many would confuse Sid with John, thinking that he was the lead singer, as he did sing on "My Way". Secondly, though JJB and Paul Simonon are often quoted, I don't think I've heard anybody cite Sid as the reason they started playing Bass. I believe Sid's contribution to music was more symbolic, somebody who you could identify, or identify with, somebody who represented the Punk movement rather than contributed to the Music, perhaps in the same way as Malcolm McLaren and Vivian Westwood can be associated with Punk. The Face of Punk possibly....innovator of Bass??? Naaaaa I think the innovator bit was tongue in cheek, and yes he was chosen more for his image than musical ability (the same as Paul Simonon was originally), but I think he could play rudimentary bass as upside downer says, the story that he only had 6 weeks to learn bass (which may have been true, or at least to learn the Sex Pistols songs)) and failed miserably was another McClaren publicity stunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Yeah, listen to vids of them playing live and he`s def playing. Ok, not the best bassist in the world but as has been said, he was doing the same as what ended up on the album. It`s a shame, both for him and the band that he joined. I`d venture he wouldn`t have died when he did if he`d still been a fan of them, and they possibly wouldn`t have split quite so soon - though I do think that Glen Matlock would have gone when he did, irrespective of whoever took his place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreek Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) I was trying to think of somebody I could equate Sid to, well known yet not very good at what they did. The best analogy I could find was Eddie "The Eagle"...everybody loves him but he was stinky poo!! (that's not what i wrote!!) Edited February 2, 2018 by TheGreek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Cloud Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 No, he was neither underrated nor a bass innovator in my opinion. I think he found his level. Music is subjective or course, so no harm to them or their fans - but in the words of the punk rockers I thought the Sex Pistols were utter B******s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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