Spend my singer's money....

[scalpy]

Our singer is in the market for a new PA. He's quite keen on the Bose L1 Model 1S with B2 bass as he wants to be able to set up at home so it looks good as well as performs nicely for live work. He's a mini salesman so whatever he gets has to be fairly compact! I've used one of the Bose in line jobs with another act and didn't think it was up to doing the kind of gigs we do. (8 piece party band with keys and horns, pubs and small functions) If he's in the market for a system my opinion is that he's better off getting a pair of barefaced fr800s. He's probably have to get two of the Bose jobs and by the time he's packaged them up a brace of the Brighton wonders plus stands probably wouldn't take up more space. If the rumours are true the barefaceds would make mincemeat of the former too. Help me settle my argument! (What he absolutely doesn't want is two grey plastic boxes like his current mackie set up.)

[Phil Starr]

If you are in a band with a drummer who uses normal sticks the Bose is going to struggle. What is he going to put through the PA? just his vocals or anything else. What is his budget?

Frankly I think he'd probably be better off with a couple of grey boxes in terms of functionality. If he goes for RCF or QSC's then he could go down to a 10" box like the RCF HD 10-A's and these might fit into his house and sound better than the Mackies as well as being smaller.

If he is just practising at home then why set up the PA? He could just get a personal monitor (I use the TC Voice Solo) which just clips onto a stand and can be used as a live monitor. It has a decent sound and goes loud enough to push you well into feedback levels, even set on the floor in a decent sized room (20'x16'). It also allows you to mix in backing tracks.

[JapanAxe]

I have a Bose L1 Model 2 and used it just for vocals in a 3-piece (guitar/bass/drums). The Tone Match mixer (which I also have) takes 3 mics and a stereo input. If you just want it for vocals, and don't play silly loud, it may do the job, and if you set ti up in the right place it can be your foldback too.

Bear in mind it's not really intended for putting a whole band through - Bose rather optimistically suggest that each musician would have his/her own system for their own vocals and instrument(s)!

Like this:

[Happy Jack]

By God! That set of four rigs would just look SOOOOOO good at the Dog & Duck ...

[BassBunny]

There is a review of the HK Elements system compared to the Bose L1 on here somewhere.
Rob (Gilmour) tried both and the HK system came out much better for a band, in fact his function band which is similar to yours has been using one for a while.
Cheaper than the Bose as well.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

RCF evox 8 might also be worth checking out (similar to the Bose L1), worth checking if your local PMT carries both for an AB comparison.

[scalpy]

Thanks folks, I suspected the Bose wouldn't be the best option. Can't quite get my head around the hk setup although I have two nanos at work and they're fantastic. We run two vocals, trumpet, sax and keys normally, and everyone occasionally on bigger gigs.

[chris_b]

I played with a keys player who used one of these, with 2 bass modules. He sounded fantastic.

The only problem I had on small stages was the keys at head height (right by my ear) so I couldn't hear anything else in the band.

One show stopping problem he had was when we played in a room with a low ceiling. He couldn't add the top part of the column which caused the whole rig to stop working. . . due to an ohms mismatch I would guess. He had to go through the PA.

So good in theory but with several serious shortcomings in less than ideal rooms.

[Alec]

Agreed that you'd probably be much better off with some of the more conventional active cabs out there.

If you don't need substantial bottom end, you'd probably get away with a decent 10" cab (RCF ART 710, Yamaha DXR12 and many others).

Going up to a 12" cab will give way more grunt (and you could extend to the Yamaha DSR range).

All of the above come in for way less than the Barefaced FR800 [s](which is passive and so would also need the extra expense & box of an amplifier, and lacks the built in driver protection that actives have)[/s] not to mention rather more compact too.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Alec

[chris_b]

Your use of brackets makes the post a complicated read. Are you saying the FR800 is a passive cab?

Because the FR800 is an active cab.

[EBS_freak]

Having been down the Bose route before, I would say that they are best suited to an acoustic act. Vocals with guitar/pianos... Anything more than that, they aren't much cop. They can be as portable as you like but if they can't keep up with the drummer, you are going to be in for a whole host of pain. The suggested placement of behind you is ludicrous at high volume also. Feedback city. Save yourself the headache... these mini line arrays just don't work for electric bands.

My recommendation?

Two RCF 745a. Same sort of concept as the FR800... BUT...

4 inch compression driver - your vocals are gonna sound out of this world... I'm not aware of any competing product that has such a driver.

These things also go LOW and LOUD (more so than the FR800 - although to be fair, the RCFs do sport a 15" woofer.).... so unless you want some seriously subby kick drum, you are going to be good for most small/medium sized gigs.

They are also a killer solution for a disco PA if you need to pipe some recorded music between sets. I would wager they would absolutely destroy any cabs up to the same price point.

Oh, and they'll sit on the back seats of a Mini with no trouble... although make sure you get some padded Hotcovers to put them in to keep both car and speakers minty fresh.

Nobody seems to be mentioning desks... the Bose has the tone match... what are you using for your band?

Edited December 15, 2015 by EBS_freak

[Alec]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1450180902' post='2930277']
Your use of brackets makes the post a complicated read. Are you saying the FR800 is a passive cab?
[/quote]

Sorry, done in a rush - now tidied up. And how did I end up thinking that the FR800 was an active cab? Also corrected. Sorry...

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1450187985' post='2930369']
Two RCF 745a. Same sort of concept as the FR800... BUT...

4 inch compression driver - your vocals are gonna sound out of this world... I'm not aware of any competing product that has such a driver.

Oh, and they'll sit on the back seats of a Mini with no trouble... although make sure you get some padded Hotcovers to put them in to keep both car and speakers minty fresh.
[/quote]

Those 15" ART 700 series cabs are HUGE, though. A few years ago, I got to compare a whole load of RCF ART cabs side by side: 310, 710, 722, 325, 725.

The 310 and 710 were very similar to each other. What was daft was the amount of level and subjective bass output from such a small driver and cab.

The 722 sounded the most gorgeous of the bunch, especially on vocals - which was my number one priority. When I need my system to kick it runs with subs. But the bottom end of the 722s was ace and tight.

The odd two were the 15 cabs. The older 325 had an astonishing amount of output, but no bottom end extension - mainly because RCF went cheap and used the same cab as for the 12" 322s. But with a sub it's an absolute monster, albeit quite a bit heavier. The 725 was *so* much bigger than the 722, that was a complete stopper for me. To me it sounded more of a disco speaker. It had a little more bottom end extension than the 722, though surprisingly little, but it wasn't elegant. And its performance on vocals was nowhere near as elegant as the 722.

So, for my needs the 722 was a clear winner for FOH use, though I have 4 of the baby 710s for monitoring and smaller PAs.

All that said, those models are now superseded by the 745 and the 732, so all bets are off - but I suspect they might not be a million miles away.

I'm very happy with my cabs, but of course they're not the only choice. If I were in the market now, I'd be looking hard at the Yamaha DSR line, though the cheaper DXRs are also commendable. And many others are also great deliverers, like Alto Truesonics at the lower cost end.

The FR800s don't do it for me. They're expensive compared with the competition, they're big and I don't like their looks. But you also can't get past the fact that they're a niche product that is unlikely to have the resale value that more conventional units have. And I actually don't believe they'd outgun a similar sized quality 15 cab or a rather smaller 12" cab like the ART 722 or DSR 12 - and . But why not take advantage of the trial period? Just make sure you use it to compare them with others, as that kind of money gives you lots of choice.

[EBS_freak]

[size=4][color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][quote name='Alec' timestamp='1450189434' post='2930383']
Those 15" ART 700 series cabs are HUGE, though.[/quote][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font]Well, big... but not unmanageable! My bread and butter is function bands and as far as I am concerned, it's a do it all speaker - I believe that they are still the best out there. I guess it all depends what the needs of the singer and the band are. I'd rather carry around a bigger speaker that isn't going to run out of steam or bass... The number of times I've heard bands that sound all tinny when the venue is full and the bass is all vacuumed up into oblivion!...[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][quote]The 310 and 710 were very similar to each other. What was daft was the amount of level and subjective bass output from such a small driver and cab.[/quote][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font]The original 310s (blue logos) were pretty incredible speakers. Made for ace monitors - and were used extensively before well all committed to IEM. Whether I would use them in an 8 piece band for front of house... especially with a brass section, I'm not sure.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][quote]The 722 sounded the most gorgeous of the bunch, especially on vocals - which was my number one priority. When I need my system to kick it runs with subs. But the bottom end of the 722s was ace and tight.[/quote][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font]Again, lovely speakers - 12s seem to be the most common choice - arguably the sweet spot for vocals... but again, subs are required for some serious thump. I've never been convinced by any single 12 inch top with kick going through it. Again, I guess it comes down to what the OP's band sounds like and what they are trying to get these speakers to do. If it's just vocals, then yeah, absolutely, 12s could work.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][quote]The odd two were the 15 cabs. The older 325 had an astonishing amount of output, but no bottom end extension - mainly because RCF went cheap and used the same cab as for the 12" 322s. But with a sub it's an absolute monster, albeit quite a bit heavier. The 725 was *so* much bigger than the 722, that was a complete stopper for me. To me it sounded more of a disco speaker. It had a little more bottom end extension than the 722, though surprisingly little, but it wasn't elegant. And its performance on vocals was nowhere near as elegant as the 722.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font]So, for my needs the 722 was a clear winner for FOH use, though I have 4 of the baby 710s for monitoring and smaller PAs.

All that said, those models are now superseded by the 745 and the 732, so all bets are off - but I suspect they might not be a million miles away.[/quote][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font]The 745s are a completely different beast - a ) because of the 4" coil in the compression driver... but also b ) due to the radically different cross over point. Very capable in the bass, more so than the predecessors - but there's less of the disco vibe because there is so much more available in the highs, again due to those 4" compression drivers.[/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][quote]I'm very happy with my cabs, but of course they're not the only choice. If I were in the market now, I'd be looking hard at the Yamaha DSR line, though the cheaper DXRs are also commendable. And many others are also great deliverers, like Alto Truesonics at the lower cost end.[/quote][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font]Agreed - the DSR offer very good value for money... I guess the thing to do, is go down to a decent PA store where you can A/B the whole lot... same as you would with bass gear really.[/font][/color][/size]

Edited December 15, 2015 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

[size=4][color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font][quote]The FR800s don't do it for me. They're expensive compared with the competition, they're big and I don't like their looks. But you also can't get past the fact that they're a niche product that is unlikely to have the resale value that more conventional units have. And I actually don't believe they'd outgun a similar sized quality 15 cab or a rather smaller 12" cab like the ART 722 or DSR 12 - and . But why not take advantage of the trial period? Just make sure you use it to compare them with others, as that kind of money gives you lots of choice.[/quote][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font=-apple-system-font]Couldn't agree more.[/font][/color][/size]

Edited December 15, 2015 by EBS_freak

[JTUK]

[quote name='BassBunny' timestamp='1450170858' post='2930145']
There is a review of the HK Elements system compared to the Bose L1 on here somewhere.
Rob (Gilmour) tried both and the HK system came out much better for a band, in fact his function band which is similar to yours has been using one for a while.
Cheaper than the Bose as well.
[/quote]

hmmm we used four Element tops and 2 bass bins which was supposed to be around 1200w..??
I'd say it was about a qtr as good as a 4000w QSC rig with top and bins...and just not up to a
loud band....and pretty much vox only.
Nice idea and we loved the ease of load and size etc etc...but when it came down to it, it was
quite a fail for a pub gig.

[JTUK]

As tops for Vox alone, I'm liking K10's.... the vox aren't as sweet as some larger horn cabs, but not harsh by any means
so do well as out front or Monitors. They'll go quite pokey but if you are looking for kick, you'll need subs.

Not a great lover of QSC subs either but you may need to make your compromises somewhere.
I liked the KW12 with a kick..over the K12's ...but again,,and as with all these things, be reasonable
with your expectations.

RCF are decent as well, the 710's over 310's

To get much better that the QSC or RCF's you are going to have to spend a lot more...
The next step up IMO, is Nexo, EAW etc but you are hauling a lot more kit for that as well.

[scalpy]

Will be trying out the hk elements then- thank you folks. Our singer is dead set against grey plastic boxes, and knowing his hectic schedule and the fact he has to drive minis (he's a branch manager) I do understand why, although I've used rcf 722s loads as they're the in house cabs at work. A bit surprised the fr800s didn't get a lot more love as this is basschat after all, but I didn't think he was that pleased with the idea anyway! Still happy to be in a band where the singer stumps up in its entirety for the pa!

[chris_b]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1450219399' post='2930753']
Our singer is dead set against grey plastic boxes,
[/quote]

I think he should buy what looks the best.

[scalpy]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1450222584' post='2930783']


I think he should buy what looks the best.
[/quote]

I hear what you saying and he does understand, but he's also fed up of trashing brand new cars chucking mountains of kit into them, so is looking for a new approach.

[Alec]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1450219399' post='2930753']
Our singer is dead set against grey plastic boxes
[/quote]
The Yamaha DSR series are wood.

[chris_b]

A couple of weeks ago we had a dep singer, who bought along a similar PA to the L1, I think it was a MAUI system?

Sounded pretty good in a noisy pub in front of a noisy band, but I think they are still very expensive. The keys and bass drum also went through it.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1450226850' post='2930830']
A couple of weeks ago we had a dep singer, who bought along a similar PA to the L1, I think it was a MAUI system?

Sounded pretty good in a noisy pub in front of a noisy band, but I think they are still very expensive. The keys and bass drum also went through it.
[/quote]

That's the LD Systems take on the mini array.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1450224826' post='2930815']


I hear what you saying and he does understand, but he's also fed up of trashing brand new cars chucking mountains of kit into them, so is looking for a new approach.
[/quote] hence why the bose thing seems appealing... ive played through one a bunch of times. Theres a couple of churches i know bought systems when they came out... regret it now. They are good but not great but put you in a position where moving to a different system means a massive outlay as you cant just change parts of it like you can with a normal setup.

[JTUK]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1450219399' post='2930753']
Will be trying out the hk elements then- thank you folks. Our singer is dead set against grey plastic boxes, and knowing his hectic schedule and the fact he has to drive minis (he's a branch manager) I do understand why, although I've used rcf 722s loads as they're the in house cabs at work. A bit surprised the fr800s didn't get a lot more love as this is basschat after all, but I didn't think he was that pleased with the idea anyway! Still happy to be in a band where the singer stumps up in its entirety for the pa!
[/quote]

All I'd say is demo hard then, as The Elements we tried wasn't up to it.
We binned it even though we borrowed it free.

This was what we tried

Correction, we used 4x 435 top units on the two subs...but you get the jist.
http://www.reidys.com/pr/pa-systems/hk-audio-elements-smart-base-system-18351/?&utm_source=GoogleBase&utm_medium=Feed&utm_campaign=PriceComparison&catargetid=120170320000001477&cadevice=c&gclid=CMn-8OyJ4MkCFSoUwwodE_cB7Q

We moved back to DXR12 tops and subs and this did ok for upto 200 people...where it was running out of steam.

Other notable units we had were
QSC KW12 and RCF 905 Subs
710 and 905's

and QSC10's.

For a pokey vox only solution to a very loud level, the QSCK10's win ...as they'll do most of the gigs..
and for the bigger one, you have to make special arrangements...

Whether 2x K10's will be enough for you..and as a Vocalist, I'd say these tale care of that dept.
Depends what your default gig is.

I'll be buying 2 more K10's in the New Year...or maybe 710's.

Anything else required, someone else can carry them.
Why the Vox wants to carry subs for kick is ...well, that is up to him

[Phil Starr]

Hmm choosing speakers on the basis of the colour? I'd think protecting his car is about size and weight rather than being grey and plastic. The other option to plastic is wood which is heavier and less forgiving when you bang things.

The solution for a smaller lighter better sounding PA than the Mackie's is a quality speaker and probably a 10. The QSC K10 and the RCF 710 keep coming up for a reason. They are probably the smallest speakers that will reliably do what you want and both sound great. Add a sub and you are good for almost any situation indoors.