Naetharu Posted December 18, 2015 Author Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1450429951' post='2932633'] Who is the band leader? Even if it's only in a loose sense? [/quote] The main song-writer and rhythm guitar player. I've had a chat with him and he seems to agree about the issue but he's a very meek/shy person - he's a great leader in the sense of song-writing/arranging but just finds managing people a little difficult. We'll get it sorted. This thread confirms for me that I'm not being weird having an issue with this kind of tone from a guitar - this is my first band so it was worth checking as it could have been a case that I was being unreasonable and just needed to get over it. I'm going to meet up with the offending gutiar player next week and I'll make a point of having a firm and frank chat with a real effort to explain [i]why [/i]the tone is causing me problems. Hopefully we can come to some form of compromise where we set the EQ to keep as much of the character that he likes as is possible while cutting the really offending parts of the frequency so as to make the mix cleaner. Edited December 18, 2015 by Naetharu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezbass Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 If it is at all possible, record a song with the current settings and then again with suggested adjustments (hopefully it'll be better, certainly can't be worse by the sound of it). Then, if he can't hear the improvement and refuses to change, a reappraisal of the lineup might need to be considered. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='Naetharu' timestamp='1450397732' post='2932500'] Reasonable questions: (1) They are pretty desperate to get a 2nd guitar player and felt that they might be able to train him up - they were trying for quite a long time to find someone and got to the point where they were willing to give anyone a shot so long as it meant they could get going. [/quote] If he's as bad as you say he is then "training him up" could take years. The band is never going to "get going" if you're spending all your time trying to get this guy up to a suitable standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_the_bass Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 We had a similar problem: The guy was a reasonable guitarist but his tone was awful. We sat down as a band and adjusted his tone to fill the gaping hole between bass and vocals and it sounded lush. Gradually, over the next 3/4 months, more and more bass crept in to "his tone" and the mids fell away. He was also insistent on writing heavier and heavier material and the fact that we needed to have a second guitarist as he didn't want to have to "carry the band musically as it was to much pressure on stage". As a result the guitarist now finds himself in a band that: 1, Has no bass player 2, Has no singer 3, Has no drummer 4, (possibly) has a second guitarist 5, Has 2 gigs booked early next year Me and the singer are now working on new material that is more the style we want to be playing and are looking forward to getting a new band together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twincam Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 What's annoying i would think is tone is relatively easy to change. I like a certain tone but often change it depending on song. So why do people just stick to one tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBassAlpha Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 Also, can you guys use reference material from bands playing your style of music with the guitarists demonstrably NOT using that sort of tone? The old-school prog I listened to doesn't feature guitarists using "metal" guitar sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naetharu Posted December 18, 2015 Author Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) [quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1450468361' post='2933206'] Also, can you guys use reference material from bands playing your style of music with the guitarists demonstrably NOT using that sort of tone? The old-school prog I listened to doesn't feature guitarists using "metal" guitar sounds. [/quote] You make a good point. I think that is the direction that our rhythm player was taking - he was explaining that he wanted to get a sound more like Pink Floyd (hardly famous for their massive scooped line-6 style metal tones) - I'm just not sure the message has quite got there. My current plan is as follows: (1) Go to the next practice (just after xmas) and insist that we lower the playing volume (a major issue in itself when it comes to practice - caused I think by the offending tone) (2) Set up the bass volume to match that of the drums being played resonably (3) Personally set the amp volumes of guitar one and two to around the same point - with a flat EQ on each (4) Let the guitar players adjust EQ to taste but insist that the volume remains the same (5) Play first song finally being able to hear bass and singer (6) Deal with surprised looking lead guitar player who cannot hear a darn thing he is playing in the mix Fingers crossed this will be the push we need to get it sorted - I think I just need to get up and take a little control since it is driving me mad. Practicing when I cannot hear half the bass I am playing and the singer is totally drowned out is insane. And right now that's what is happening since the scooped guitar is being cranked so bloody loud to compensate for the stupid EQing. If after all that I still cannot get through I'll have to sit down with the band-leader & drummer and have a serious chat because right now it's just killing the fun for me. Edited December 18, 2015 by Naetharu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagsieblue Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 [quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1450340997' post='2931752'] Been there and decided to tell the whole band we sound sh*t, all because one guy wants 'his tone' Along with a long rant at why he chose this tone and that we are no longer playing in his bedroom on a tiny MG30 combo, and don't need to compensate for the lack of bass guitar in a bedroom. The guy is obviously a child [/quote] From experience - completely agree. Give him a rehearsal (or two) to sort it or walk away. Otherwise it will be a continuous bone of contention. Again, from experience, I wish I'd have nipped this in the bud as soon as possible by either dealing with it or walking away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 [quote name='Norris' timestamp='1450252347' post='2930863'] Most threads of this ilk generally advise to tell him to take "his tone" elsewhere [/quote] This +1 Tone >>> bedroom Naughty tone Hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 I've only seen this situation once, and it wasn't a band I was in. They had just taken on a mate of mine as a second guitarist, as it was his first rehearsal and they were rehearsing a hundred yards from my house, he asked if I'd be there, which wasn't a problem because I was mates with them all (and they were thinking of getting rid of their bass player and were going to ask me to join). The new chap was eighteen and had just come into quite a lot of money, so he blew three and a half grand on new gear. This was the first time he'd used it outside his bedroom... "Dude, that sounds like a wasp in a biscuit tin!" His face dropped like a stone. But then the first guitar explained why, even explaining why it sounds better in his bedroom. He accepted this and they got together with the bass player and sorted out where they each needed to be tonally. I don't understand why this doesn't happen everytime a band takes on a new member. It has certainly been a part of each band I have been in, though there were never any insects in confectionary containers, only slight tweaking needed, if anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 If the rehearsals are too loud and nobody can hear anything...does everyone realise the same thing...that this is not achieving anything, and surely you aren't the only one who is fed up with this situation. I've known gigs to get out of hand, but rehearsals..??? IIf the sitiation is as half as bad as it sounds, then defo band meet time.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naetharu Posted December 19, 2015 Author Share Posted December 19, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1450540546' post='2933780'] If the rehearsals are too loud and nobody can hear anything...does everyone realise the same thing...that this is not achieving anything, and surely you aren't the only one who is fed up with this situation. I've known gigs to get out of hand, but rehearsals..??? IIf the sitiation is as half as bad as it sounds, then defo band meet time.. [/quote] The singer has brought it up a few times and has since just decided to quit - he's not given a firm reason but I am pretty sure this is at the root of the issue. So yep, it's not just me. I'm keen to try and sort it out rather than just walk away since I can see potential here and I like the people, but yer, someone needs to explain to guitar number 2 that a rehearsal does not need to be at stadium volume... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 who is more valuable, this gtr or the singer..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naetharu Posted December 19, 2015 Author Share Posted December 19, 2015 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1450543000' post='2933796'] who is more valuable, this gtr or the singer..? [/quote] I totally get your point, that was my reason for posting here for some reassurance and advice. I've actually had a chat with the singer and he is going to hand around for a few more weeks and see how things go. Hence I'm really keen on getting this sorted asap as I think it is a major problem and likely to kill the whole project if not dealt with in a timely manner. We'll just have to see what comes of it next practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 It sounds like things have to change or things will change for you... so at least you have a mandate for being pretty forceful getting what you need... Things can't...and don't look like they'll..carry on as they were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHW Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I think I recently made a breakthrough with one of my guitarists, In a rehearsal I noticed that his sound was a lot clearer, cutting through the mix, and cleaner than usual. Glancing at his pedal I noticed that he was playing one of our rockier songs to his "Mustang Sally" setting, which is pretty clean. The daft old sod had forgotten to change it over. I decided to jump on the opportunity by telling him how much better it sounded, and how his lead stuff really cut through instead of getting lost in the mix. It seems to have worked, as I have seen him using that setting on the majority of our set. Maybe the old fashioned methods of positive reinforcement are still the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 [quote name='CHW' timestamp='1450703266' post='2934964'] Maybe the old fashioned methods of positive reinforcement are still the best. [/quote] True, but a big stick with nails in is LOADS more fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naetharu Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 [quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1450714203' post='2935121'] True, but a big stick with nails in is LOADS more fun! [/quote] A little harsh! I must admit I did contemplate taking the fuses out of his amp head...it'd be a big sonic improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 [quote name='Rich' timestamp='1450273116' post='2931224'] Horrid scoopy tone = knob. Refusal to compromise for the sake of overall band sound = complete knob. "Too cool for earplugs" = [u][b]idiot[/b][/u] (and complete total and utter knob). What do your bandmates think? Does it get on their nerves too, or is it just you? If it's just you, do they know that it's pissing you off? [/quote] It sounds like a very inexperienced guitarist, between this and the other thread about what guitar to buy. He probably has no clue what the band sounds like as a whole and just enjoys making noise... I think recording a rehearsal could be a useful way to approach the subject in a constructive way... but I am not optimistic. I haven't met a single guitarist with the traits you describe who is willing to compromise. If the rest of the band sees no problem, then it may be time to look for another band. If they see a problem, then it's time for another guitarist, probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naetharu Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 Sat down with the band leader and main song writer yesterday and had a good chat about the issue. He was aware we sounded bad but didn't know the cause and was just hoping we'd 'grow into our sound' A friend recorded the last gig we did so I was able to show him an example of the guitar in question doing a cacophonic solo which seemed to come as a shock. End result is that we're getting it sorted it seems. Guitar two is going to be asked to let us set his amp tone and volume for the time being if he wants to keep playing. We'll see how that goes and review the situation after a couple of practices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 Good stuff. Just make sure Guitar 2 doesn't feel like he's being picked on. As above, positive reinforcement all the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 [quote name='Doctor J' timestamp='1450855247' post='2936393'] Good stuff. Just make sure Guitar 2 doesn't feel like he's being picked on. As above, positive reinforcement all the way. [/quote] Yeah, comments such as "wow we can hear all you do now, never realised you put so much into the songs" are much more likely to get the desired result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naetharu Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 Aye, don't fear - I'm not one to be a jerk to people. We'll be kind but firm about what we need and do our utmost to explain the reasons and encourage rather than berate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subbeh Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) Glad your situation is looking up, having a recording to backup your points helps so much in these situations. Hopefully he'll realise that what you're trying to do will make him sound better as well as the band. It seems a lot of people just listen to their own contribution not the band as a whole or their fellow band members. I'd stressed to my lot that our singer is flat and there are a couple of songs where he pushes his voice and it just sounds awful. Someone invited a mate along to record a rehearsal a few weeks back and they sacked the singer the next day. I wanted to work with him to improve like you are with your guitarist Edited December 23, 2015 by Subbeh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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