Playing live mic / DI question

[omikin]

Apologies if this has already been answered in another thread - I did have a look but couldn't find anything that went into the specifics of my query (or at least nothing I understood...).

My preferred setup for tone is my 70's Bassman 100 head and Barefaced 2x12 cab. I know exactly how to dial in my desired tone on that one. However, whenever I have played live the sound guy usually wants to put the bass through a DI box before the amp, so the signal he gets on the desk has none of the lovely valve tone, never mind the EQ I've used. Is there a way round this which is low hassle for the sound guy? I ask as my band is going to be doing a fair few support slots where I think we will have fewer options than the headliners and possibly only very brief soundchecks so I don't want to be a pain in the arse.

My other option is to use my Genz Benz Streamliner 900 head which I can get a reasonable approximation of the right tone from (probably indistinguishable for the audience tbh) and then the sound guy should be able to use the onboard DI with no issues, no?

I'm beginning to think I have answered my own question here, but your opinions would be much appreciated! Thanks everyone.

[RhysP]

[quote name='omikin' timestamp='1450785320' post='2935807']
Is there a way round this which is low hassle for the sound guy?
[/quote]

f*** the sound guy, he's there to do a job. If you want your cab mic'd then tell him to do it.

If you're happy to use the Streamliner then fair enough (it's certainly easier than lugging a Bassman head around) But don't be fobbed off with a DI you don't want just because the sound guy is to lazy/inexperienced/crap to bung a mic in front of a cab.

[Lozz196]

I`m assuming the Bassman doesn`t have on-board DI, in which case micing up the cab would get you your sound - but not all sound engineers like micing cabs up. Other than that as mentioned the solution is use the Genz and go post-eq on the DI from that.

Given the weight difference, and as you`ve mentioned, audience appreciation difference, using the Genz will be a far easier solution all round.

[omikin]

Thanks guys. I think given that if we're supporting and I'm using my rig as opposed to the headliner's then GB and DI would be the most sensible route. As I say, the audience will be unlikely to notice. Save the Bassman for when I also have an 810 and roadies...

[Dad3353]

[quote name='omikin' timestamp='1450785320' post='2935807']... Is there a way round this which is low hassle for the sound guy?...
[/quote]

The classic solution for vintage valve amps is the Hughes and Kettner 'Red Box' DI, which plugs into a speaker out, and included cab simulation. Here's the current model, from our Teuton friends ...

[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/hugheskettner_red_box_5.htm"]Red Box ...[/url]

The older model can be found on an auction site ...

[url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HUGHES-KETTNER-Red-Box-Pro-Direct-Box-DI-with-Guitar-Cabinet-Simulator-23826-/181967606549?hash=item2a5e1d5315:g:lyUAAOSwCQNWdkvf"]Older Red Box ...[/url]

Personally, I find these to give better results than micing up in 'live' situations, and are very useful for recording, too. Recommended.

[omikin]

And for clarity - the Bassman is from around 1976 and has no DI socket. Only line in and speaker out.

[omikin]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1450786647' post='2935833']
The classic solution for vintage valve amps is the Hughes and Kettner 'Red Box' DI, which plugs into a speaker out, and included cab simulation. Here's the current model, from our Teuton friends ...

[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/hugheskettner_red_box_5.htm"]Red Box ...[/url]

The older model can be found on an auction site ...

[url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HUGHES-KETTNER-Red-Box-Pro-Direct-Box-DI-with-Guitar-Cabinet-Simulator-23826-/181967606549?hash=item2a5e1d5315:g:lyUAAOSwCQNWdkvf"]Older Red Box ...[/url]

Personally, I find these to give better results than micing up in 'live' situations, and are very useful for recording, too. Recommended.
[/quote]

Now that's not something I have come across before. I like it! So would I set up the amp and cab as normal then use a second amp lead from the extension speaker output into the redbox?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='omikin' timestamp='1450786853' post='2935837']...So would I set up the amp and cab as normal then use a second amp lead from the extension speaker output into the redbox?
[/quote]

Exactly so, as, by coincidence, your Fender head has a socket for an extension cab (as does mine...). It's painless, and the signal is about as near as darn it to the 'perceived' cab sound; better than a rough-fit mic on stage. For recording, I'd mic up too, but spend a lot more time in mic placement. This luxury won't be available on stage, especially for a support slot. A DI from the Red Box will please any competent sound tech, I'm certain, and all get the best of both worlds, including the audience.

[CamdenRob]

This is why the Sansamp BDDI or one of it's offshoots is an almost ubiquitous bit of kit...

[Dan Dare]

Red Box a good solution. You could also carry a specific mic for the task. Something like a Sennheiser E602 or 901.

[BigRedX]

A word of caution with using the Red Box for bass amps. This product is pretty much aimed at guitarists who very rarely go above 100W output on their amps. I couldn't see anything on the H&K site or in the manual for the latest version about the maximum power rating of the device, but I would double check with the manufacturer before using it with a bass amp or any amp rated at more than 100W.

Also the speaker emulation is voiced for guitar cabs where the inefficiencies of the cab and speakers are a part of the classic rock guitar sound. This might not be appropriate for the bass sound that you want.

For guitarists the Red Box is a fantastic piece of kit. I have one built in to my H&K guitar combo, and in the studio, the sound is virtually indistinguishable from mic'ing up the speaker with an SM57. When I was playing guitar live, I would always use the DI since it was far easier to control the sound on stage and FoH mix.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1450788860' post='2935863']
A word of caution with using the Red Box for bass amps. This product is pretty much aimed at guitarists who very rarely go above 100W output on their amps. I couldn't see anything on the H&K site or in the manual for the latest version about the maximum power rating of the device, but I would double check with the manufacturer before using it with a bass amp or any amp rated at more than 100W.

Also the speaker emulation is voiced for guitar cabs where the inefficiencies of the cab and speakers are a part of the classic rock guitar sound. This might not be appropriate for the bass sound that you want.

For guitarists the Red Box is a fantastic piece of kit. I have one built in to my H&K guitar combo, and in the studio, the sound is virtually indistinguishable from mic'ing up the speaker with an SM57. When I was playing guitar live, I would always use the DI since it was far easier to control the sound on stage and FoH mix.
[/quote]

Sound advice, but in practise, the DI doesn't really bother about power ratings, as long as it's used with the extension speaker socket. It could be different if using the 'through' socket, but I've never had to. Our Fender is a 50w Export Bassman, but our Hiwatt DR205 doesn't worry it, at 200w (not that we play with the Hiwatt maxed out; the ceiling would cave in. Yes, [i]any [/i]ceiling...).
As for the 'voicing', it's as near as as the job requires for live stage work, especially if using rather more 'neutral' cabs (the OP mentioned Barefaced..?). In any case, I find it far preferable to a hasty micing up. As I stated earlier, when going for a 'live' recording, I'd want micing up, too, but we wouldn't be in a support slot scenario then. The Red Box is hassle-free, reasonably priced and gives excellent results. It doesn't come much better.

[Bloc Riff Nut]

Not micing the cab is usually'because it's easier'.
in my experience small stage pub venues are mostly di'ed and bigger venues are both di and mic.
I use a countryman di which sits between the cab and the amp. Works well and never had any hassle from sound guys.
Played a mini festival thingy last month and wee were pushed for time setting up. The sound guy insisted on taking the time to mic the cab(THANK YOU VERY MUCH).

Countryman 85 DI, great bit of kit.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1450785879' post='2935814']
f*** the sound guy, he's there to do a job. If you want your cab mic'd then tell him to do it.
[/quote]

I haven't found that attitude to work in practice, unless you're calling the shots and hiring the sound guy yourselves. Any time you set up that adversarial relationship with the house sound guy, it's never a good gig!

[gapiro]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1450790761' post='2935887']
I haven't found that attitude to work in practice, unless you're calling the shots and hiring the sound guy yourselves. Any time you set up that adversarial relationship with the house sound guy, it's never a good gig!
[/quote]
+1
Work [i]with[/i] the sound guy to get the best out of the venue. dont patronise or abuse.
In most cases they are working for time constraints on top of other things - not just laziness unless you have actually got someone who couldn't give a flying donkey.

[krispn]

I'll echo what has been said above - get yourself a decent mic for your cab, muck about with placement in your rehearsal room or to record to a laptop etc so you can listen back and decide where sounds best for, then mark out a 'square' or an 'L' shape on your cab where you think the mic sounds best for future reference. Insulating tape works well and is removable - gaffa tape can be a bit too sticky and leave residue!

Next gig tell the sound guy you wanna mic the cab and you have everything you need to do so and work with them to get the sound sorted. You'll know exactly where you want the mic to go and have the gear ready to do it etc. The sound guy doesn't have to worry about picking or placing a mic and you come across as competent and professional and most importantly prepared.

I think that we as players should know how to get the sound we want and have the gear we need to make it heard (within reason) so if we come across an inexperienced or lazy tech or just one who's time limited for set up/soundcheck its not an issue as we can be left to our own devices and set up and let him/her get on with the mix.

Ideally tell them you want cab and di signals mixed and let them create massive tone for you FOH - who knows they might even enjoy mixing you!

Side note - I'm still baffled by the number of singers who don't own their own mic...yuk!

Edited December 22, 2015 by krispn

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='krispn' timestamp='1450799106' post='2935982']
Next gig tell the sound guy you wanna mic the cab and you have everything you need to do so. You'll know exactly where you want the mic to go and have the gear ready to do it etc. The sound guy doesn't have to worry about picking or placing a mic (even though he should as its his job) and you come across as competent and professional and most importantly prepared.


[/quote]

Yes, if I get into gigging with a valve amp again I might try this approach and see if it meets with less resistance. I've tried the post-amp DI approach before with a BSS AR116 with the 4KHz roll-off switched in and it required a lot of EQ to sound much like the speaker did.