Zoom B3. MS-60B, B1on USB control

[drdashdot]

Hi all. I've been lurking for about a year after picking up a bass again after many years. I then found the Zoom B3, then the related threads here.

With the B3, I wanted more effects, and expression pedal input. So, I've been developing a controller that interfaces to Zoom multistomp/multieffects pedals. It's grown like Topsy and does things Zoom says can't be done. I'm thinking about a production run after a bit more development, but would like some indication of what people want.

Maybe not the best time for this sort of thing, but I need guidance.

Here are some demos. The first is with a G5 but is a general overview. Please tell me what you think! (and answer the poll question)


[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85AkRSm4JFQ"]https://www.youtube....h?v=85AkRSm4JFQ[/url]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TDQdsqH9DY"]https://www.youtube....h?v=8TDQdsqH9DY[/url]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMEmc1P0kEM"]https://www.youtube....h?v=lMEmc1P0kEM[/url]


In case the videos are too much, here's the executive summary.

Uses the USB interface to provide all functions. No Zoom mods needed

Works with G5, G3, G3X, B3, MS-70CDR, MS-50G, MS-60B, G1on, G1Xon, B1on, B1Xon

Controls multiple Zoom pedals – any combination of the above.

Screen scrolls (by touch or dial) to show a detailed view of all controls of all effects in chain. Optionally show/hide each effect in chain. (eg show G5 effects 2, 3, 6 and 8 only.)

Screen shows an overview of entire effects chain showing on/off status of each effect

Touchscreen interface plus assignable knob. All patch and effect settings can be adjusted using either.

Continue to access all effect/patch controls on screen while looper, rhythm or tuner operating (eg change effect settings on screen during or between loops using screen, knob, footswitches or expression pedals.)

Maintain tails on delays while switching effects eg on MS-70CDR, G1on. (Enable one and disable other effect in chain with single switch press rather than multiple presses on Zoom pedal.)


Floor unit:
- provides assignable footswitches and multiple expression pedal inputs
- Footswitches (both press and release) can be programmed with arbitrary combinations of: turning effects on/off, changing effects, changing effect settings, patch and bank changes (up, down or random access), volume/balance/tempo changes (including tap tempo and global/master tempo), tuner control (some pedals)
- Each expression pedal can control multiple parameters (any dial or slider control – including patch volume and tempo) of multiple effects on multiple Zoom pedals simultaneously


In development:

- patch/footswitch config storage: arbitrary number of settings
- footswitch scroll operation


Note: this works with current Zoom firmware. No guarantees with any future firmware changes by Zoom.


Cheers,
Dave

Edited December 22, 2015 by drdashdot

[dannybuoy]

Outstanding work!

[irvined]

Wow!

That is fantastic.

[elephantgrey]

Havnt had chance to watch the videos yet, so sorry if this is covered there, but is there any chance of midi in/out for program change and temposync?

[drdashdot]

Thanks all.

[quote name='elephantgrey' timestamp='1450861093' post='2936421']
Havnt had chance to watch the videos yet, so sorry if this is covered there, but is there any chance of midi in/out for program change and temposync?
[/quote]

Yes, sorry about the big meandering videos. Like a bad 70's drum solo.
It's not shown, but the controller does accept (usb) midi note on/off (and treats those just like footswitch press/release - assignable in the same way.) Needs polishing, but works ok.
Continuous control midi input also could be included quite easily - I'll see if I can do it without overcomplicating the user interface. (I'm also mulling over how to include z-pedal and other built in pedal assignments nicely. Plus LFO(s).)

On that topic, anyone have thoughts on whether the LFO is desirable? Want more than one?

Regarding temposync, if you want to sync up the Zoom rhythm machine, I don't think any of the pedals will. If you just want to convert a midi clock to a tempo setting and send that to the G and MS series pedals, that should be possible.

The 1 series pedals won't accept tempo changes from usb at all from what I can see. That's a real pity - otherwise they'd easily be my pick with this controller. Put the B1on in a metal box, give it some control options and it kills the B3 - as long as you don't want DI.


Cheers,
Dave

[Guest FretNoMore]

Very cool! What can you control in the MS-xx pedals? I have the impression they don't respond to much other than Program Change commands?

Edited December 24, 2015 by FretNoMore

[Onfire]

Really cool mate, such a great and helpful idea

[Bigwan]

Great work!

[elephantgrey]

just watched the videos. Im impressed, seams to open up the controllability of the zoom units alot.

Some things id like to say about it though: could you change the signal chain from 'right to left' to 'left to right' please (or option for)? Multiple LFOs would be sweet.


i wouldnt need the rhythm machine really, but tempo control over a looper would make this a really nice little unit. There arnt many midi-sync'able pedals out there, and alot of them are both expensive and large. Id love a small one (with a controller if needed) to go at the start of my board with my boss looper at the end.
Still, even if thats not possible, ill still be following with interest.


Edit: also, i should have said, the ability to control multiple of these pedals at once is awesome.

Edited December 29, 2015 by elephantgrey

[Bigwan]

[quote name='elephantgrey' timestamp='1451387703' post='2940008']
could you change the signal chain from 'right to left' to 'left to right'
[/quote]

That kind of bugged me too! It seems that left to right is probably historically correct (and logical!) for most things except effects pedals... And Arabic...

[drdashdot]

Thanks for the encouragement.

[quote name='elephantgrey' timestamp='1451387703' post='2940008']
just watched the videos. Im impressed, seams to open up the controllability of the zoom units alot.

Some things id like to say about it though: could you change the signal chain from 'right to left' to 'left to right' please (or option for)? Multiple LFOs would be sweet.


i wouldnt need the rhythm machine really, but tempo control over a looper would make this a really nice little unit. There arnt many midi-sync'able pedals out there, and alot of them are both expensive and large. Id love a small one (with a controller if needed) to go at the start of my board with my boss looper at the end.
Still, even if thats not possible, ill still be following with interest.


Edit: also, i should have said, the ability to control multiple of these pedals at once is awesome.
[/quote]

It does open them up and some of the compromises forced by the Zoom firmware are a bit of a pity. I think I'll summarise those and post again.

Haven't mentioned anywhere yet - the signal flow can be changed on screen - L to R or R to L. Changing on the screen also changes on the pedal (and vice versa) for the G series pedals. The MS pedals are fixed R to L; the 1 series pedals L to R. (Both can be displayed either way on the screen though.)

[Dood]

That's quite some work you've accomplished! Good on you! - There was me thinking how it'd be possible to simply change patches using say, a ten pedal MIDI controller? (Think Behringer, Boss, Roland etc) and you've added graphics and a screen and... very cool!

[Kevin Dean]

more evidence of the fact I'm the thickest person I know .Clever chap.

[Greg Edwards69]

I wonder if this could be made into an iOS or android app that would interface directly to an zoom unit? I'm not fussed about extra hardware based control - but the touchscreen interface looks awesome!

Edited January 1, 2016 by Greg Edwards69

[Dood]

[quote name='Greg Edwards69' timestamp='1451674237' post='2942362']
I wonder if this could be made into an iOS or android app that would interface directly to an zoom unit? I'm not fussed about extra hardware based control - but the touchscreen interface looks awesome!
[/quote]

I believe it is possible to use IOS apps that already exist to change patches on a B3. I'll have to search out the YouTube videos that describe how to though using a MIDI interface.

[drdashdot]

[quote name='Greg Edwards69' timestamp='1451674237' post='2942362']
I wonder if this could be made into an iOS or android app that would interface directly to an zoom unit? I'm not fussed about extra hardware based control - but the touchscreen interface looks awesome!
[/quote]

That's a bit like asking whether you could replace the Zoom pedal with an ios or android application. The answer to either question is yes you could, but it's pretty certain that there would be reduced capability/flexibility.

For this sort of thing I prefer dedicated hardware - makes things more predictable and stable. (Extra hardware is likely to be needed anyway - the only question is how much.)

(Another thing I'll note about dedicated hardware is that I think the capacitive touch screen found on almost all devices these days doesn't fit the purpose as well as a resistive screen, which accepts touch from a pick.)

I do like the touchscreen but really like to have the knob as well.

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1451676660' post='2942399']
I believe it is possible to use IOS apps that already exist to change patches on a B3. I'll have to search out the YouTube videos that describe how to though using a MIDI interface.
[/quote]

Yes, that's straightforward - all of the Zoom pedals accept midi patch change commands

.

[Guest FretNoMore]

I have program change on MS-60B and MS-70CDR using a Disaster Area dHOST MIDI to USB adapter and a small USB hub. Sending the MIDI PC command to the gHOST can then done using a hardware controller, or from software like Midi Designer on an iPad. The iPad would then need a MIDI adapter too. It adds up.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c4RKpwDBtuo

(In the video the program change sometimes misses, this has now been fixed with newer firmware).

[drdashdot]

[quote name='FretNoMore' timestamp='1451727030' post='2942727']
I have program change on MS-60B and MS-70CDR using a Disaster Area dHOST MIDI to USB adapter and a small USB hub. Sending the MIDI PC command to the gHOST can then done using a hardware controller, or from software like Midi Designer on an iPad. The iPad would then need a MIDI adapter too. It adds up.

[url="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c4RKpwDBtuo"]https://m.youtube.co...h?v=c4RKpwDBtuo[/url]

(In the video the program change sometimes misses, this has now been fixed with newer firmware).
[/quote]

Thanks FretNoMore - that's a good example of what I meant. Add to that the chance of an iThing/android OS upgrade breaking things...
The PC misses in the video are interesting. I wonder what was happening there? (I don't remember having the same problem at any stage.) Note also that using just PC messages like this doesn't allow simple patch/bank up/down as the device doesn't track the pedal state. (Doesn't read patch info on startup, for example.)


[quote name='FretNoMore' timestamp='1450947176' post='2937195']
Very cool! What can you control in the MS-xx pedals? I have the impression they don't respond to much other than Program Change commands?
[/quote]

Sorry - forgot your earlier question. Short answer is - almost everything, but sometimes not elegantly. It looks like tempo change and any parameter change (including effect on/off) in effects 4,5 and 6 can be made only by reloading the whole patch with the new parameter setting. So, any such change kills tails (and produces any other artifacts or transients that a patch change does.) That means it will be impractical (probably) to use an expression pedal on effects 4 to 6 and maybe undesirable to change tempo during a song. (All still possible though.)
Changes to parameters of effects 1 to 3 work beautifully - seamless.
This means that I'd probably reconsider using the LineSel effect in the first 3 positions of patches with more than 3 effects - extra footswitch function makes it redundant (except for level balancing) and it wastes the well behaved effect position.

This is a pain and a pity. It looks like an accidental outcome from when Zoom altered the original G series code for the MS pedals but abandoned the edit&share support. Oddly, the 1 series pedals behave differently again - all 5 effects can be adjusted without misbehaving.
I'll summarise these quirks for all pedals soon.

Cheers
Dave

Edited January 2, 2016 by drdashdot

[Guest FretNoMore]

Very cool, definitely more useful than just PC changes, though even that is a huge improvement for live use.

Do you have any plans to support other pedals/brands?

[drdashdot]

Haven't thought much about other pedals/brands. (Let's see whether this flies first.) Do you have any in mind?

[drdashdot]

Thanks to all poll respondents – looks like a pretty even spread across the 3 groups of pedals.
I've also asked the question on 2 other sites. If you're interested in those discussions, have a look at:

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/threads/zoom-b3-ms-60b-b1on-usb-control.1195426/"]http://www.talkbass....ontrol.1195426/[/url]

[url="http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/zoom-multi-stomp-multi-effects-usb-control-ms-70cdr-g1on-etc.1652836/"]http://www.thegearpa...on-etc.1652836/[/url]

There's been some interest in what can (and can't) be done via USB control for each of the pedal series, so I thought I'd list what I've found so far.
For the MS and 1 series pedals, some changes can be made only by reloading the entire patch, with the desired parameter changes. This has the same effect as changing patches: eg, killing tails. Can't do anything about that without a change of Zoom firmware.

In the following, “control pedal/switch assignment” refers to the built in pedal or the control inputs (not to extra expression pedals or footswitches working via USB.)

G series pedals (G5, G3, G3X, B3):
- global settings: tempo and signal path direction can be changed, master level can be read but not changed
- patch settings: patch level, effect types (and order), patch name, control pedal/switch assignments (and max/min settings) all can be changed
- effect settings: on/off, effect type, parameter settings all can be changed
- looper, rhythm: no USB control
- tuner can be controlled for B3 and G3 (v1 only)

MS series pedals:
- patch settings: tempo, patch name, effect types (and order) can be changed by reloading patch
- effect settings: on/off, parameter settings all can be changed (individually for effects 1,2 and 3; only by reloading patch for effects 4, 5 and 6)
- tuner can be controlled

1 series pedals (G1on, B1on):
- global settings: no USB control, except tempo (which is read-only)
- patch settings: patch level, effect types (and order), patch name: can be changed by reloading patch
- control pedal/switch assignments (and max/min settings) for G1Xon, B1Xon: don't know yet
- effect settings: on/off, parameter settings all can be changed
- looper, rhythm: no USB control
- tuner can be controlled

If I've overlooked anything you're interested in, let me know and I'll edit. (Note that I haven't tested the MS-50G, the G1Xon or the B1Xon yet. Or the MS-100BT for that matter. Hmm... might work, with bluetooth added. Might look at that later.)


Cheers
Dave

Edited January 3, 2016 by drdashdot

[elephantgrey]

Just a bump to ask how this is coming along. And to say that Im still interested in this, especially if MIDI is added.

[drdashdot]

[quote name='elephantgrey' timestamp='1454694257' post='2972212']
Just a bump to ask how this is coming along. And to say that Im still interested in this, especially if MIDI is added.
[/quote]

Sorry for the delay. Still coming along - a few unexpected minor issues with MS pedals in the last little while.

MIDI is definitely on the cards now. Can you give me an idea of your setup? The current midi mapping scheme can convert any incoming midi control message to any Zoom control sequence.

[elephantgrey]

[quote name='drdashdot' timestamp='1455273391' post='2977622']
Sorry for the delay. Still coming along - a few unexpected minor issues with MS pedals in the last little while.

MIDI is definitely on the cards now. Can you give me an idea of your setup? The current midi mapping scheme can convert any incoming midi control message to any Zoom control sequence.
[/quote]

Currently i am using a Tech21 Midimouse for program change messages, then through my boss RC50 which sets master clock, after that i send to a midi splitter, and to my eventide timefactor, chase bliss pedals via modded empress midibox, and korg electribe.

What im mainly looking for is patch change, and tempo sync of time based effects.
I would also love to have a zoom unit at the start of my chain as dedicated looper if i could sync its tempo to midi. I would like to loop a short bassline, play about with effects and then record a longer loop on my RC50.

Edit: im currently only have a ms60b (zoom pedals that is), but use 3 effects as always on tone shaping. With added midi support/extended utility, i would probably get a b1on as a dedicated looper, and either another ms60b or b1on for more effects.

Edited February 12, 2016 by elephantgrey

[drdashdot]

[quote name='elephantgrey' timestamp='1455296402' post='2977987']
Currently i am using a Tech21 Midimouse for program change messages, then through my boss RC50 which sets master clock, after that i send to a midi splitter, and to my eventide timefactor, chase bliss pedals via modded empress midibox, and korg electribe.

What im mainly looking for is patch change, and tempo sync of time based effects.
I would also love to have a zoom unit at the start of my chain as dedicated looper if i could sync its tempo to midi. I would like to loop a short bassline, play about with effects and then record a longer loop on my RC50.

Edit: im currently only have a ms60b (zoom pedals that is), but use 3 effects as always on tone shaping. With added midi support/extended utility, i would probably get a b1on as a dedicated looper, and either another ms60b or b1on for more effects.
[/quote]

Thanks for the info. The Zoom pedals might not do what you want.
I'm not familiar with the RC-50, but from a quick read it has finer tempo resolution (0.1 BPM) than the Zoom pedals (1 BPM).
There are other problems with the Zoom pedals too - the MS pedals' tempo can only be changed by overwriting the patch; the B1/G1 tempo can't be set by USB at all (as far as I can see.) That's the biggest shortcoming of the G1on I think.
A midi clock won't be interpreted by any Zoom pedal - it has to be converted to an integer tempo by the external box and fed to the pedal.
If you confine the Boss to integer values of tempo and are careful about when you change tempo, it might work in a limited way. Very likely not well enough for any practical purposes though.
Sorry if that disappoints. A few fairly minor firmware changes by Zoom would go a long way!

It would be possible to work the other way and generate a midi clock from the Zoom tempo setting. (No firm plan to do that at this stage, but I'll put it on the maybe list.)

Edited February 13, 2016 by drdashdot