Mark's Diaries: The journey of becoming a pro player

[mentalextra]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1464809166' post='3062838']
.................... I’ve got a straight 9 to 5 office job and can’t be considered a pro musician in any reasonable way, yet have been playing upwards of 40 pub gigs a year for most of the past 25 years – ever since I stopped trying to be a professional musician in fact! I make a fair few quid out of doing so, but certainly nowhere near what I would consider making a living. If you were to play 150 such gigs a year (3 a week), you would struggle to even cover your rent in London, so I don’t think that pros really do really make a living playing gigs ‘exactly like’ the one you describe.
[/quote]

Interesting. There are a lot of guys, convinced they are 'pro', still living with their parents for financial reasons, but who don't even play as much as you?

[peteb]

[quote name='mentalextra' timestamp='1464820080' post='3062980']
Interesting. There are a lot of guys, convinced they are 'pro', still living with their parents for financial reasons, but who don't even play as much as you?
[/quote]
I remember when I was a kid just starting out and there were always these guys who would tell you that they were pro musicians, when really they were signing on and playing a couple of gigs a month!

There are plenty of guys like me who have been round the block a bit but still gigging regularly, mainly in covers bands in pubs. Actually, in the last few years I've also been playing the blues circuit, including working with acts doing mainly original material (well as original as you can get playing blues)!

[Wonky2]

Interesting views on the "pro" subject ......
My two pen'eth
I think the important thing to remember, the thing some get confused, be "pro" is not a degree of competance or proficiency.
Itsnot about where you play, for whom, or for how long.... Its about it being your proffession. Your SINGLE source of income. That can take many shapes, live work, teaching, cruise ships, studio sessions, tv work, deping etc etc, it not important where when or how, the key is that in essence you play your bass to earn your living. A proffesion. This means paying tax, even being a registered business.

If you are not very good, have poor equipment, are unreliable, inflexible etc ... You will quickly realise that earning a living is difficult as you have three main allies, reputation ,reccomendation and repeat business. If you jeporidise any of the 3 with any of the afore mentioned defficiencies, well, earning enough to live on as a SOLE INCOME, is gonna be impossible.

If you need to support this income with a "job" of any other kind than bass playing, well then you bass playing work is a semi proffesion, ie, you earn part of your income from another source.

Many weekend giggers with 9-5 jobs are well seasoned experienced musicians for sure, semi pro... Part timers if you like.

Again, its not a degree of competance and does not necessarrily dictate large pay checks. Allthough you can appreciate the highly competant are in higher demand ( thats not to say demand is high !), attract more formal appointments/arrangments and can dictate better rates.

Sorry im rambling.... This isnt aimed or directed at anyone nor a is it a comment on marks hard work and determination, just a veiw having read many on the subject.....

Keep at it mark maybe you can support your frelance stuff with a regular corporate/ function band ? Coukd provide the regular income you need ? Pays better than pubs for sure... If you cant find a slot in one, form one ! With the right direction 3 nights a week is not unfeasible... The calander soon fills up for a polished outfit

Wonky

[peteb]

[quote name='Wonky2' timestamp='1464826572' post='3063010']
Interesting views on the "pro" subject ......
My two pen'eth
I think the important thing to remember, the thing some get confused, be "pro" is not a degree of competance or proficiency.
Itsnot about where you play, for whom, or for how long.... Its about it being your proffession. Your SINGLE source of income. That can take many shapes, live work, teaching, cruise ships, studio sessions, tv work, deping etc etc, it not important where when or how, the key is that in essence you play your bass to earn your living. A proffesion. This means paying tax, even being a registered business.

If you are not very good, have poor equipment, are unreliable, inflexible etc ... You will quickly realise that earning a living is difficult as you have three main allies, reputation ,reccomendation and repeat business. If you jeporidise any of the 3 with any of the afore mentioned defficiencies, well, earning enough to live on as a SOLE INCOME, is gonna be impossible.

If you need to support this income with a "job" of any other kind than bass playing, well then you bass playing work is a semi proffesion, ie, you earn part of your income from another source.

Many weekend giggers with 9-5 jobs are well seasoned experienced musicians for sure, semi pro... Part timers if you like.

Again, its not a degree of competance and does not necessarrily dictate large pay checks. Allthough you can appreciate the highly competant are in higher demand ( thats not to say demand is high !), attract more formal appointments/arrangments and can dictate better rates.

Sorry im rambling.... This isnt aimed or directed at anyone nor a is it a comment on marks hard work and determination, just a veiw having read many on the subject.....

Keep at it mark maybe you can support your frelance stuff with a regular corporate/ function band ? Coukd provide the regular income you need ? Pays better than pubs for sure... If you cant find a slot in one, form one ! With the right direction 3 nights a week is not unfeasible... The calander soon fills up for a polished outfit

Wonky
[/quote]
I think that you are pretty much on the money there. However I think that you have to accept that many guys you would think of as definite 'pros' also have an income stream outside of just playing. A pro drummer I know used to work for a PA company when he wasn't gigging and also used to buy and sell comic books to boost his income. He now has a part time office job for the first time in his life (in his 50s) and is really happy because he doesn't need to rely on function gigs, which he hated.

I believe that Rick Parfitt used to work on building sites when Quo were off the road for years...!

Edited June 2, 2016 by peteb

[mentalextra]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1464821424' post='3062995']
.............................these guys who would tell you that they were pro musicians, when really they were signing on and playing a couple of gigs a month!...................................
[/quote]

This is the problem with defining 'pro' in mostly financial terms. Guys that have low overheads, or living with parents will find it easier to describe themselves as 'pro' in that respect. Plenty of guys on here get plenty of playing time and earn nicely but don't/can't cover the running costs of a family

[ivansc]

If you apply Wonky2`s criteria to defining who is a pro and who isn`t, I suspect that 99% of gigging pros would fail.

I suspect you have never actually BEEN a pro, wonky.

As with any business where you are self-employed, there are always going to be good times and lean times.
It is all very well saying that in order to be considered Pro you have to make ALL your money from music, but realistically, that is not the way it works in the real world. I have gone from a six week tour of the UK working 6-7 nights a week to NOTHING for a month before now. You just never know.
And of course the family still need feeding and the rent needs to be paid.

If it makes you feel better to call us non-pros, knock yourself out. It doesnt affect the way guys like Mark and myself feel about what we do.

[markmcclelland]

Hi guys. I'm really enjoying the debate here. I may address some points but I'm in the middle of something now but wanted to come on quickly. First, I appreciate all the thoughts and thanks everyone for taking your time to come in and give them. All very cool. I just want to say right now that in no way am I making the claim, as far as the diaries are where they are, that playing that one gig makes me a professional bassist. As I said, still a waiter/barman. It's just a professional gig. Sorry Pete. I'm disagreeing with you on that point. . Oh, and yes. a f**k long reply it was. I quite enjoyed writing it and glad you took the time to read it all.

There's someone on another site, won't name names, who would disagree with Wonky and believes that even if you make ALL your money playing bass, you still can't call yourself a professional unless you have a certain level of competence/knowledge. I infer from that that if you make millions playing in some superstar rock band but can't play a jazz standard in a different key on demand you're not professional. Oh, I have no idea what he means. Right. This is already much more than I intended to write. I have read everything and I've no doubt there's more to come on this subject. When I get the chance, I will give my thoughts on a bit more, afterall this is my thread and I am kind of obliged to do so.

Oh why didn't I just call it my first 'paid gig?' That could not possibly have been debated. But I guess then we wouldn't all be having so much fun debating it.

All the best

Mark
Professional barman and semi competent waiter. Sometimes quite likes to play bass.

Edited June 2, 2016 by markmcclelland

[markmcclelland]

In the meantime, for better or worse, here's how that first 'professional' (please don't hit me) gig played out.
https://marksdiaries.wordpress.com/2015/12/19/day-129-part-2/

[mentalextra]

On your journey to becoming a 'pro' player, at what point do you know you've arrived? Or did you start the journey as a pro and expect to arrive as a wealthy pro?

I'm honestly not a 'hater' Mark, I just find the whole 'definition of a pro' an interesting debate.

[peteb]

[quote name='markmcclelland' timestamp='1464858266' post='3063142']
It's just a professional gig. Sorry Pete. I'm disagreeing with you on that point. .

[/quote]
I wouldn't worry about that too much, it’s a moot point at best. After all, when all is said and done, it is a paying gig – just don’t go and get a mortgage on the strength of it…!

As it gets more and more difficult to make a living playing music, what defines a ‘professional musician' is an interesting question and I would say that the line between a pro and a certain type of semi-pro is becoming more blurred. Like lots of those in the modern creative industries, many musicians are having more strings to their bow to ensure that they can make a living.

As a final point, I would mention that the people I know who make the most money from music are those who write and record music – songs and incidental music for music libraries. Perhaps that is something worth considering??

Edited June 3, 2016 by peteb

[markmcclelland]

All the above is very interesting absolutely no offence taken anywhere in this.


[b]On your journey to becoming a 'pro' player, at what point do you know you've arrived? Or did you start the journey as a pro and expect to arrive as a wealthy pro?
I'm honestly not a 'hater' Mark, I just find the whole 'definition of a pro' an interesting debate.[/b]

Again, all cool and no offence taken at all. I'm currently on holiday and it's really difficult to write and do stuff right now. I'm honestly not ignoring anyone. I'll have a good look at all this in the next few days when I'm back in London and in more workable conditions.

[peteb]

It's just people pontificating and talking nonsense on an Internet forum - enjoy your holiday dude!

[mentalextra]

A little more pontification. Ideally we'd all be a professionals, while we are aspiring to be professional we are amateurs. There are very few ways you can call someone an amateur without it sounding like an insult? Although I'm given to understand that muso's prefer to refer to non professionals as 'part timers', but that's another can of worms

[markmcclelland]

Thanks a lot Pete. I really am appreciating all the thoughts and wishes and good natured disagreements.

And yes Mental - and I don't believe that's your real name. Let's not open that an of worms. I will give one thought here though regarding what you said, I believe you have to act and think like a professional to become one. Not like the reply I received from a singer once who wasn't pulling her weight and I told her to be more professional about it. She said, 'Mark, I'll start acting like a professional when we start getting paid.' There was only one way that was going to end after that although we remained great friends.

[Wonky2]

[quote name='ivansc' timestamp='1464856300' post='3063123']
If you apply Wonky2`s criteria to defining who is a pro and who isn`t, I suspect that 99% of gigging pros would fail.

I suspect you have never actually BEEN a pro, wonky.

As with any business where you are self-employed, there are always going to be good times and lean times.
It is all very well saying that in order to be considered Pro you have to make ALL your money from music, but realistically, that is not the way it works in the real world. I have gone from a six week tour of the UK working 6-7 nights a week to NOTHING for a month before now. You just never know.
And of course the family still need feeding and the rent needs to be paid.

If it makes you feel better to call us non-pros, knock yourself out. It doesnt affect the way guys like Mark and myself feel about what we do.
[/quote]

First of all as mark aNd pete have rightly said, its just a discussion, its not a trade off of digs or one up Manship.... Far from it
As i said, its interesting and we all have different views, doesnt make any one of them difinitive.

In answer to your question, or "suspicion" at one time, playing bass was my sole source of income for a period of approx 3 1/2 years. Thats an income which was enough to pay a mortgage and put food on the table, oh and pay tax.

But It had its difficulties and with kids came along i needed stability instead of a famine or feast. So, first of all came a part time job, then eventually with reluctance, a 9-5.
I did continue to play both live and studio on a semi pro basis. I was paid for what id did which was both regular and one off appointments, but this wasnt my primary source of income, hence my view semi pro. These days i do it for the shear love of it, money has no relevance in the matter, im happy if my exoenses are covered..... but would point out the frequency is low, but one that suits me just fine.

So, that said, allthough by some standards mine a relativley short time at it full time, i do feel i have a degree of insight on it, albiet my own personal one..... Regardless of which, im not even sure that actually matters ?

I guess on re-reading my 1st post i was wrong in saying "pro" equates to SINGLE source of income, i guess the more appropriate view would be PRIMARY source of income. That meaning your income from playing is your bread and butter and your bar job, helps support that.
When the balance tips the other way and your bar work is your primary income supplemented with gig money or session fee's, well.....then Your a barman who is also a semi pro bass player.

These comments are'nt designed to make me "feel better" , id also point out that ive never until now being put under ivansc's "suspicion" talked in any way about my own level of competance or history of work,commented on anyother members level of competance ir anything of tgat nature, my comments are in no way suggesting semi pro's ,part timers , guys having fun ,what ever you want to call them, are any the less competant, again, my original point stated non of this "pro" mullarkey suggests any degree of competence. Ive played with some guys who do it for fun or after they finish the day job who are truly remarkebly talented musicians. Ive also played with "pro's" who are seriously defficient in areas....

Just to confirm, these days, i do it for the love of it....the day job, life, kids, poor health are all now a part of my life, the gigs or playing i do, i really do enjoy, which is more than can be said for some of the tosh i played for money.

I couldn't really give a hoot what anyone calls them selves, all of the above was merely my view in a friendly open discussion.
Put me in the bedroom noodler catagory if you like, im good with that

Edited June 5, 2016 by Wonky2

[peteb]

[quote name='Wonky2' timestamp='1465000207' post='3064622']


First of all as mark aNd oete have rightly said, its just a discussion, its not a trade off of digs or one up Manship.... Far from it
As i said, its interesting and we all have different views, doesnt make any one of them difinitive.

In answer to your question, or "suspicion" at one time, playing bass was my sole source of income for a period of approx 3 1/2 years. Thats an income which was enough to pay a mortgage and put food on the table, oh and pay tax.

But It had its difficulties and with kids came along i needed stability instead of a famine or feast. So, first of all came a part time job, then eventually with reluctance, a 9-5.
I did continue to play both live and studio on a semi pro basis. I was paid for what id did which was both regular and one off appointments, but this wasnt my primary source of income, hence my view semi pro. These days i do it for the shear love of it, money has no relevance in the matter, im happy if my exoenses are covered..... but would point out the frequency is low, but one that suits me just fine.

So, that said i do feel i have a degree of insight on it, albiet my own personal one.....

I guess on reading my 1st post imwas wrong in say pro equates to SINGLE source of income, i guess the more appropriate view would be PRIMARY source of income. That meaning your income from playing is your bread and butter and your bar job, helps support that.
When the balance tips the other way and your bar work is your primary income supplemented with gig money or session fee's, well..... Your a barman who's a semi pro bass player.

These comments are'nt designed to make me "feel better" , id also point out that ive never until put under "suspicion" talked in any way about my level of competance or history of work, my comments are in no way suggesting semi pro's ,part timers , guys having fun ,what ever you want to call them, are ant the less competant, again, my original point stated non of this "pro" mullarkey suggests any degree of competence. Ive played with some guys who do it for fun or after they finish the day job who are truly remarkebly talented musicians. Ive also played with "pro's" who are seriously defficient in areas....

Just to confirm, these days, i do it for the love of it....the day job, life, kids, poor health are all now a part of my life, the gigs or playing i do, i really do enjoy, which is more than can be said for some of the tosh i played for money.

I couldn't really give a hoot what anyone calls them selves, all of the above was merely my view in a friendly open discussion.
Put me in the bedroom noodler catagory if you like, im good with that
[/quote]
Great post - you are of course completely right.

[Wonky2]

Why thank you pete, im glad you could decifer my dodgy typing and spelling, including refering to your good self as oete.

[peteb]

[quote name='markmcclelland' timestamp='1464982101' post='3064469']
Thanks a lot Pete. I really am appreciating all the thoughts and wishes and good natured disagreements.

And yes Mental - and I don't believe that's your real name. Let's not open that an of worms. I will give one thought here though regarding what you said, I believe you have to act and think like a professional to become one. Not like the reply I received from a singer once who wasn't pulling her weight and I told her to be more professional about it. She said, 'Mark, I'll start acting like a professional when we start getting paid.' There was only one way that was going to end after that although we remained great friends.
[/quote]
To be fair, your singer friend does have a professional attitude in some respects - or at least an attitude that many professional musicians have! The phrase "a £50 gig gets a £50 preparation" is certainly something I have heard many times before. Of course they will always want to raise their game if they are going to play to an appreciative audience or especially if there are going to be some of their peers in that audience!

I was once asked to dep for a showband playing WMCs while their regular bass player went on holiday. They didn't confirm the dates to me for so long that I ended up being busy and not being able to do it, so they asked my flat mate at the time (also a good bass player) to play the dates. He didn't have much time to learn the set but they said not to worry, 'we can go through the anything that you're not sure of at the soundcheck'. However, as soon as they got to the first gig they got stuck into the bar and just said "don't worry, they're more bothered about the bingo than the band here - as long as we don't get paid off we couldn't give a #*$%". Bear in mind this band contained a few really good pro players. Sometimes a professional attitude is not what you think it might be...!

Edited June 4, 2016 by peteb

[peteb]

[quote name='Wonky2' timestamp='1465005143' post='3064631']
Why thank you pete, im glad you could decifer my dodgy typing and spelling, including refering to your good self as oete.
[/quote]
Smartphones are a wonderful thing...!

[markmcclelland]

Fair enough Pete. I wasn't clear in that what me and my friend were doing was playing in a duo with our own songs which is something you, rightly or wrongly, don't expect to make any money from for quite some time if ever, so I think the approach has to be slightly different. I think that with an original project, you have to accept you're not in it for the money but still put everything into it or it isn't going to go anywhere. At all. But I think that's a different subject to what this is all actually about.

That showband experience is a very telling story and, I'm sure, a common one.

[markmcclelland]

So many great thoughts. Maybe I missed something. If I have, please let me know.

PeteB, first, I very much enjoyed my holiday. Thankyou very much. While on it, I also very much appreciated your suggestions of ideas in other avenues that could be looked at and, as time goes on, they may very well be explored. I've always said that being pro, which I would define as not having to have a conventional day job, means you have more time to explore such opportunities. If nothing else, you can have greater availability for meetings and sessions and other such concepts where these things may come about.

And yes. The line between pro and, as you say, semi pro, is definitely become more and more blurry. Even semi pro, in many cases, can be a very worthy achievement. Think semi-pro footballer. I'm sure there are many Sunday leaguers on here of quite a high level who still never got anywhere near being able to get paid for kicking a ball around.

[b]Wonky[/b]
[b]Keep at it mark [/b][b][/b] [b]maybe you can support your frelance stuff with a regular corporate/ function band ? Could provide the regular income you need ? Pays better than pubs for sure... If you cant find a slot in one, form one ! With the right direction 3 nights a week is not unfeasible... The calander soon fills up for a polished outfit [/b][b][/b]

Wonky, your thoughts on it were pretty much spot on I thought and thanks a lot for the kind words.
The diaries are significantly progressed from what's on wordpress and things have also moved on. Your advice, as were your thoughts, is totally spot on.

I particularly loved this little turn of phrase
[b]the highly competant are in higher demand ( thats not to say demand is high !)[/b]

Your thoughts on your own experiences were very interesting and this got me thinking.

[b]I guess on re-reading my 1st post i was wrong in saying "pro" equates to SINGLE source of income, i guess the more appropriate view would be PRIMARY source of income. That meaning your income from playing is your bread and butter and your bar job, helps support that.[/b]

Yes. I think PRIMARY source of income would be a good way to look at it. My situation was that I was working the bar job while doing a few paid gigs to supplement that income. I was looking at it that it would be a great if I could be doing enough paid gigs that the bar job would eventually turn to become part time to supplement that. At that point I would have had no problem, to change your own description round a little, of calling myself a professional bass player who also did some bar work.

[b]the gigs or playing i do, i really do enjoy, which is more than can be said for some of the tosh i played for money. [/b]

I really liked this too. Yes it's true that being a pro, you do have to do songs and gigs you might not particularly be into. And if you're not concerned about the money, or it's just a sideline, you can shrug off those kinds of obligations.

In fact, I very much agree with Peteb that this is a whole great post and my favourite in fact. A lot of nails hit on heads and I think a very interesting read for so many types of people. Thanks for sharing all that.

And

[b]im glad you could decifer my dodgy typing and spelling, including refering to your good self as oete.[/b]

Just love it.

[b]Mental Extra[/b]

[b]On your journey to becoming a 'pro' player, at what point do you know you've arrived? Or did you start the journey as a pro and expect to arrive as a wealthy pro? [/b]

Answer to this question. I started as a broke English teacher and became an even more broke English teacher before the revelation of the move to London which had all kinds of adventures. So no. I didn't start as a pro but started at a level where making money with my bass playing was attainable if I could get myself in the right place, hence the diary and its attendant adventures. At what point do you know you've arrived? As has been quite rightly pointed out here, playing a first gig where you get paid is definitely not that point but it is a first professional gig so a start. I think, as far as defining yourself as a professional bass player, you've arrived when you don't need any other source of income to pay all living expenses. However, the industry the way it is, you do generally have to do a few different things to get by. As Pete alluded to, people teach, produce, engineer, write, play all different types of dep gigs. And maybe do some kind of freelancing in another profession. Also, think about this. Oh, there are so many other things you could talk about - including how much you need to make depending on your lifestyle and wants - but I'll leave that for now.

While playing a first standard pub gig was admittedly hardly a stellar achievement, it was a significant moment in the diaries. I came to London purely because I knew such opportunities existed and that my level was suitable to take them. It was so nice to arrive on a scene where you could play music people knew and enjoyed and get paid for it. Very rarely the case in Madrid where I was living before. There, I often told people about the scene I knew in Ireland where it is very easy to have a good cover band and make a very good supplementary income. I say this because these are the kind of bands I played with in Madrid and, no matter how good they became, they were never going to be more than hobby bands purely because of where they were operating.

I think it's possibly time to say that the February in the Diaries is 2015 and things have progressed a little. I'm also actually not a barman/waiter anymore although this may be very much subject to change.

[markmcclelland]

Just to get back to what this thread is all about, here's the latest entry where I experience and talk about the [color=#1D2129][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]frustration and dilemmas of playing in a promising startup original band and a take a quick trip back to Madrid[/font][/color]

https://marksdiaries.wordpress.com/2015/12/19/day-130/

But please feel free to continue to add any thoughts to the above discussion or anything else you might want to have a look at.

[Wonky2]

Thanks for you're kind comments and for taking the time to read my ramblings !

What you are doing is admirable, publicly documenting it, even more so.

I long for the day when my mortgage is paid and i can slow things down, perhaps return to playing as my primary (albiet significantly lower) source of income.

I did get asked to do 1 day a week in local guitar shop doing repairs and setups, a day at the school teaching guitar/bass and of course gigs and studio work...,also get £50 standby money from the band i dep for occaisionally when they have big commiyment dates.
Right now, it's not enough, but once that stone (mortgage) has been lifted (8 years left) ill snap at those opportunities.
Plenty of avenues for you to explore mark, id suggest in the short term a spot with a function band is gonna be your biggest earner whilst you line up a few other earners... It's not everyones approach sure, but dates in diaries equal pay checks.

Wonky

[peteb]

[quote name='markmcclelland' timestamp='1465122506' post='3065401']

And yes. The line between pro and, as you say, semi pro, is definitely become more and more blurry. Even semi pro, in many cases, can be a very worthy achievement. Think semi-pro footballer. I'm sure there are many Sunday leaguers on here of quite a high level who still never got anywhere near being able to get paid for kicking a ball around.

[/quote]
Sorry to keep picking your musings apart with minor points, but…

The line below semi-pro footballers and the professionals is very distinct. Anybody playing non-league football, yet alone Sunday league, by the time they are 20 is doing so because they are not good enough to play professionally. Anyone who slips through the net (such as Ian Wright) very quickly comes to the attention of the big League teams. The rewards are so great (even at the relatively lower levels) that virtually anyone at the level would turn professional in a heartbeat.

The same is not true in music where the financial rewards are a lot less certain and where it is not so clearly delineated who is good and who isn’t. You can often see bands with semi-pros paying alongside pro musicians and there are plenty of semi-pros who are far better players than many pros. Even at the highest level, there are many sought after session players who will quite happily admit to having technical limitations but play with the very best as they have great feel and the knack of knowing what to play at any given time. You don’t have to play like Jaco to be in AC/DC…!

Also, being in the right place at the right time has a lot more to do with success in music than it does with football…

[markmcclelland]

Wonky, thankyou very much for that mate.

And yes, all opportunities to think about. A great keyboard player I knew opened a music shop and I know a lot of music shop owners are professional musicians at some level or other. And yeah, the mortgage is a killer and was not something I ever looked at and deliberately so. And yes. Dates equals paycheques. I'm on it.

And hey Pete.

I was really just talking about the semi-professional v professional aspect of it rather than what it takes in each of the two disciplines to achieve those levels.

I found myself nodding to a lot of what you said. Yeah, you're right to say there are a few differences once you pick it apart. Again, correct that the time window of opportunity is scarily tiny while in music it's almost limitless. And also yes, you can make money in music by having a fraction of the talent it would take to play football. I've often used the AC/DC thing myself. Not to mention a certain Mr Clayton. And on the flip side, Jaco died broke.