Motown or Stax?

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1450911538' post='2937059']
Tough call,did Stax treat their artist better than Motown?

Blue
[/quote]

I heard a lot of good stories about Stax and the ones that are left are good friends but I know nothing about the dealings in Motown. It would take an insider knowledge of both to say.

[Tonteee]

From the little bit I know, Stax had a correspondingly lower budget / better working environment than Motown. I still believe the artists didn't make terribly much out of it. Been looking out for a decent book on the subject for a while.

[Big_Stu]

Stax got burned by their deal with Atlantic, if they'd been able to go big without it it could have been a much bigger story than it was.

[EssentialTension]

Peter Guralnick, [i]Sweet Soul Music: Rhythm and Blues and the Southern Dream of Freedom[/i] ... [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sweet-Soul-Music-Southern-Freedom/dp/1841952400/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sweet-Soul-Music-Southern-Freedom/dp/1841952400/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8[/url]

[Tonteee]

Cheers, ET!

[blue]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1450911685' post='2937062']


I heard a lot of good stories about Stax and the ones that are left are good friends but I know nothing about the dealings in Motown. It would take an insider knowledge of both to say.
[/quote]

I don't think it takes an insider to know Barry Gordy President of Motown, while he provided opportunity he was not fair in financial compensation.

A lot of those 60s icons were left with nothing. Including Jamerson.

Blue

Edited December 24, 2015 by blue

[drTStingray]

Although both of these forms of soul music influenced music more generally, it's very clear that Motown influenced pop/rock bass players more than most. Jamerson and Babbitt had a profound and broad effect!! Listen to the original soundtrack of Jesus Christ Superstar - Alan Spenner's playing is pure Jamerson!! John Paul Jones (especially the Lemon Song) and Paul McCartney.

Although not a soul fan until the mid 70s I had noticed the bass parts on Motown songs from the late 60s and the bass on some of the Stax (but the horn riffs were the real stand out there).

The other thing both genres did was to crossover to white audiences in the UK in a big way - Motown was particularly beloved of late 60s skinheads, as was Trojan reggae and the likes of Ben E King and Otis Redding.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1450916943' post='2937099']


I don't think it takes an insider to know Barry Gordy President of Motown, while he provided opportunity he was not fair in financial compensation.

A lot of those 60s icons were left with nothing. Including Jamerson.

Blue
[/quote]

Blue, I'm not sure that's totally fair. The likes of Jamerson were on a salary and the books written suggest he and his family were comfortably off - certainly at the height of the success. The real upset started when they moved to LA, and soul music started to morph into other things, which some of the guys found difficult to adapt to - along with other issues. One would have hoped that people would have looked after these guys when hard times happened but history has shown the music business has not been able to prevent a lot of tragedy over the years.

Edited December 24, 2015 by drTStingray

[blue]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1450917286' post='2937103']


Blue, I'm not sure that's totally fair. The likes of Jamerson were on a salary and the books written suggest he and his family were comfortably off - certainly at the height of the success. The real upset started when they moved to LA, and soul music started to morph into other things, which some of the guys found difficult to adapt to - along with other issues. One would have hoped that people would have looked after these guys when hard times happened but history has shown the music business has not been able to prevent a lot of tragedy over the years.
[/quote]

Sounds like you know your history, something I really admire.

Yeah, the west coast move and the sale of Motown probably was not good for a lot of the staff.

However, I'm not to sure how well off Jamerson was. Well,he didn't have to work at the motor car plant. So he was a step up from most. If Gordy had him on salary it was because it was his cheapest option. He was not in the business of making artists rich.

Blue

Edited December 24, 2015 by blue

[ivansc]

Blue: read the book "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" which is where drTStingray probably got his info.
Someone sent it to me along with the accompanying cassettes (!) when it was still in the "trying to raise the money to do a proper version" stage.
Interesting stuff.
I was one of the early bass guitar players in the UK and it was interesting to see how events developed very similarly over here.
Stuff I recorded in the very early sixties I got told was "too busy" Who knew?
Got to say it has to be Stax and the Philly sound all the way for me.
Most of Motown's output was much too bland and polite for me.

One little gem is "Boogaloo down Broadway" by the fantastic Johnny C. On the Phil-a-of-Soul label originally.

[pobrien_ie]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1450916943' post='2937099']


I don't think it takes an insider to know Barry Gordy President of Motown, while he provided opportunity he was not fair in financial compensation.


A lot of those 60s icons were left with nothing. Including Jamerson.

Blue
[/quote]

I know they didn't get much in the way of recognition at Motown, but Jamerson was being paid $1000 a week back in the late 60's - a considerable sum at the time. How he chose to spend/squander that is the sad story.

To the OP, it's a hard one to call. Motown for the sheer output and success, but Stax for the raw blood, sweat and tears feeling!

For us bass players does it come down to the Funk Brothers or the MG's?

[Jazzneck]

[b] [font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif][size=4]Respect Yourself: Stax Records and the Soul Explosion by Robert Gordon is the book.[/size][/font][/b]


[font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif][size=4]I haven't read it yet, it's an early Christmas present.[/size][/font]

[font=tahoma,geneva,sans-serif][size=4]Oh and as Muscle Shoals has been mentioned, dare I add Chess Records, too?[/size][/font]

Edited December 24, 2015 by Jazzneck

[neilp]

[quote name='taunton-hobbit' timestamp='1450900186' post='2936894']
Stax every time - it had far more oomph - Motown was the Beatles, Stax was the Stones, as far as I was concerned (and I grew up in that era).


[/quote]
Funny that, cos I'd agree with the comparison, and if I had to choose I'd have Stax over Motown, but I'd take the Beatles over the Stones any day (and that's from someone who doesn't like McCartney!)

[ezbass]

If I had to choose, it would be Stax. I prefer the rawer sound, almost rock in a number of cases, over the more glassy, pop (if you will) sensibility of Motown. Of course, there are notable exceptions, Let's Get It On for instance.

[sbrag]

As others have said I love the rawness of Stax pver motown and I can listen to Duck Dunn'so playin all day. Also Stax of the Funk Vols 1 and 2 are my favourite compilation albums.

Also Motown didn't have Sam and Dave and Rufus Thomas.

Edited December 24, 2015 by sbrag

[TheGreek]

Could you actually take one without the other??? Not me..

[chris_b]

Don't confuse the greatness of Jamerson's lines, the great singers and the super successful hit singles with the majority of Motown's output. Motown put out a lot of unremarkable songs on the albums which were intended to be throw away pop music. Motown was always well written, arranged, recorded, performed and played but most of it was very forgettable.

Jamerson wasn't unappreciated by Berry Gordy and during the Detroit years I believe he became the highest paid session player in the US. I think Jamerson was the most creative and influential bass player. He didn't just open the "busy bass lines" door for the rest of the world, he knocked the whole wall down.

In spite of JJ's unique greatness I still prefer Tommy Cogbill with Aretha Franklin, David Hood with Mavis Staples, Duck Dunn with Sam and Dave and Vernie Robbins with Jean Knight.

[Big_Stu]

He da man!! Edited December 24, 2015 by Big_Stu

[Tuco]

I love both Motown and Stax.
What's not to love?
Jamerson will always be my number one though.
Always has been, ever since I marvelled at the rumblings on my mums Four Tops greatest hits album when I was like nursery age.

[kodiakblair]

Stax for me. A very long time back Joe Hubbard recommended a Motown compilation " Chartbusters vol 3 or 5 ?" As I really only listened to punk this was a departure for me.
Boy I'm glad I bought it as I started looking for Soul and R&B in the record shops,which of course lead me to Stax. Mavis Staple,Booker T,Otis,Issac Hayes ! Oh the talent is
astonding.

While Motown is still great as is Fame/Muscle Shoals, Stax and it's close ties to the civil rights movement give it the edge for me.
Just thankful we've got all 3.

[skej21]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1450916943' post='2937099']


I don't think it takes an insider to know Barry Gordy President of Motown, while he provided opportunity he was not fair in financial compensation.

A lot of those 60s icons were left with nothing. Including Jamerson.

Blue
[/quote]

It doesn't take an expert to know his name wasn't Barry...

As for the music, choosing between Motown, Stax and Atlantic is like choosing between three vintage wines. They're all a quality product we can enjoy!

[louisthebass]

Both, plus the output from Muscle Shoals and Fame Studios as well.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1450955283' post='2937306']
In spite of JJ's unique greatness I still prefer Tommy Cogbill with Aretha Franklin, David Hood with Mavis Staples, Duck Dunn with Sam and Dave and Vernie Robbins with Jean Knight.
[/quote]

How about Jerry Jemmott with Aretha? (I understood he did famous late 60s albums).

I understand the point being made about the rawness of Stax - but the point is it's meant to be a soul genre - getting close to rock is something quite different - I don't think I've ever played with other musicians who have ever played Hard to Handle correctly with a soul feel - the chords in the turnarounds are invariably played incorrectly and the feel often turns into something akin to a rock song. Quite irritating for a soul fan like me as the original is great!! (IMO). (Not that I don't like rock as well - I just don't feel the need to convert every song in existence to that genre).

Edited December 26, 2015 by drTStingray

[blue]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1450886755' post='2936738']
I hate both.
[/quote]

"Needs to get out more"

Agreed

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1451174014' post='2938714']
How about Jerry Jemmott with Aretha? (I understood he did famous late 60s albums).

I understand the point being made about the rawness of Stax - but the point is it's meant to be a soul genre - getting close to rock is something quite different - I don't think I've ever played with other musicians who have ever played Hard to Handle correctly with a soul feel - the chords in the turnarounds are invariably played incorrectly and the feel often turns into something akin to a rock song. Quite irritating for a soul fan like me as the original is great!! (IMO). (Not that I don't like rock as well - I just don't feel the need to convert every song in existence to that genre).
[/quote]


I don't think there's an incorrect way to play/perform "Hard To Handle". I think some bands might play it poorly but incorrect, no. Just my honest opinion.

I love Otis's version, it' the tops to me. However I dig Tom singing it and I also like the way The Black Crows rock it.

Blue