Barefaced choice

[JTUK]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1452187823' post='2947450']
I'd guess that any cab which only comes up to thigh-height is going to have similar issues with hearing the mids and highs when you're standing right next to it (though perhaps less so with a dedicated mid driver), so it's hardly some unique flaw to this specific cab. There are very few cabs on the market which wouldn't have exactly the same issue.
[/quote]

I don't agree with this..at all, as it happens.
I've long used 2x112's and they sit low as each cab is typically 14" inches.. so none of the pairing's I've used have been over 30" max..
I'm 6"2 so my ears are pretty far away from the top of those cabs.

I've never had issues hearing what I play..and I never ever bury my bass in the mix even when there is
an 88 keyboard in the band..which invaribly there is on all my gigs.
I have all sorts of bits and bobs going on style-wise and I want to hear them.

Last comment I had was from a singer...who was out front in the audience and he said "I can hear
everything single thing that you play" which is exactly what I set out to do because that is what I want to hear
as well.

I've not brought any specific cab maker into the equation.

Edited January 7, 2016 by JTUK

[stevie]

You probably don't play in some of the Dog and Duck places that I do, JTUK. Or use flatwound strings. Last week I was standing about level with the front of my cab and about three feet to the side - in front of the drummer. The only place the singer could stand was in front of my cab. Because I have a 15" speaker with a midrange driver on top, I could still hear myself. But without that midrange speaker, I wouldn't have been able to hear the higher frequencies I need to make out pitch. When you are so far off axis, they simply don't reach your ears.

If you can stand at least three feet in front of your cab, it's not so much of a problem.

[JTUK]

I do agree that I wont play small gigs and be crammed in tiny places with cymbals in my ear
but a 5 piece band with keys will take up a lot of space in quiite a few pubs.

Staying out of the way of a full range keyboard with mini P.A onstage, or contending with frequency
hogging gtrs does mean you can't just settle for any sound.

I believe too many bass players pick the wrong sound..or rather have that sound in their head
but don't have much idea about why it doesn't work. I can pretty much find that around here every week
when out catching bands.

And despite the perception here that bass players are the more sound orienated guys in the band, that doesn't
tally with my recollection locally.

[MoonBassAlpha]

So what is your own personal formula for your onstage sound? It may be useful for many on here who haven't arrived at it for themselves yet.

[lo-freq]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1451824459' post='2943678']
If you have a cab on the floor and you can't hear it... dispersion is the least of your problems.

...
[/quote]
Smaller drivers do have better dispersion (at relevant frequencies) than larger drivers, this should help OP hear himself better.
This can be done with a midrange driver like the Greenboy Fearless or fEarful cabs or various other ways (vertical array of smaller drivers like the Genzler BA12-3, a HF driver coupled witth a wide area dispersion horn - both vertical & horizontal like Audiokinesis Thunderchild cabs or inventive chambering / porting like Audiokinesis Hathor cabs, multiple small drivers like Phil Jones cabs).
I believe that the Barefaced G3 BB2 & BT2 use wide area horn coverage as well, but I haven't tried one yet.


[quote]
...

Basically you have researched poorly ...also, your sound needs working at
As for taking a large box along to put said cab on..?? ???
[/quote]
I have used a plastic milk crate to get my cab(s) up closer to ear level for several years.
This also helps cut down on room-boom in bad acoustic environs.
If I need more low end, I EQ it in.
I generally make two trips with my gear:
Trip 1. Bass case, gig bag, & milk crate (into which I usually put extra stuff);
Trip 2. Amp & cabs on a 2-wheeler hand truck.

Different strokes for different folks: what works for me, won't work for everyone, just saying this works for me.

Edited January 8, 2016 by lo-freq

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1452187823' post='2947450']
I'd guess that any cab which only comes up to thigh-height is going to have similar issues with hearing the mids and highs when you're standing right next to it (though perhaps less so with a dedicated mid driver), so it's hardly some unique flaw to this specific cab. There are very few cabs on the market which wouldn't have exactly the same issue.
[/quote]

Also people have differing levels of preference as to how clearly they like to hear themselves, I like to have my bass very loud in my personal "mix" but I've met met people who dont care so much because I guess they play more by physical action or absolute fret/string positions.

[JTUK]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1452211105' post='2947783']
So what is your own personal formula for your onstage sound? It may be useful for many on here who haven't arrived at it for themselves yet.
[/quote]

That is a good question and I believe that most players don't help themselves in this regard.

Depends what drives their desire for the sound they play with.
Mostly I think that limitation is with the player themselves and the technique they use.
Even trying another sound is tough technically if you don't sound any good using it.

For me... I use shelving amps and predominately 12" with a horn.
I make use of mids over bass..and keep bass as low as I can..
This should not be confused with not having a full sound but it is the reason
why I never suffer boom and also it shouldn't be honky or nasally
The low end is full but not shaking...

Ideally I use a 210 on top of a 212 but mostly I go with 2x112 with a horn.
Horn half way up and no bass on the active EQ..

At no point will the sound get buried if everyone is sensible, but most gtrs are a bit oblivious to this
so I like to use guys that colour their parts as opposed to riff all over everything.
This is why I dislike most 3 pieces as the gtr seems to take this as a chance to fill everything with his
'chord' work which is often not very sospisticated and fills too much in verse where he should back off
and drops out for solos where the song needs the lift...

If people leave sonic space it is easy..get into fights over that space and you end up with a mess...

My sound sits around the kit...not fits through it..and keys play a higher register.
Gtrs fit over and around those parts..one has the main part and the other has the colour.

NO POWER CHORDS

And basically if the song doesn't work with just bass and drums and needs the keys and/or gtrs to drive
it then you are losing the battle.
Beware of chords players who think they should always drive songs.

That is to start with... but before that you need to pick the players who can do this..

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1452276743' post='2948480']
That is a good question and I believe that most players don't help themselves in this regard.

Depends what drives their desire for the sound they play with.
Mostly I think that limitation is with the player themselves and the technique they use.
Even trying another sound is tough technically if you don't sound any good using it.
[/quote]

So here as with many of the discussions you contribute to, your starting assumption is that people with problem are crap players and/or don't know what they are doing with their gear. Now while that may even be true in some cases, throwing around these casual dismissals of everyone else's ability doesn't make for a particular constructive and useful discussion.

[JTUK]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1452287576' post='2948633']
So here as with many of the discussions you contribute to, your starting assumption is that people with problem are crap players and/or don't know what they are doing with their gear. Now while that may even be true in some cases, throwing around these casual dismissals of everyone else's ability doesn't make for a particular constructive and useful discussion.
[/quote]

I was asked for my take on it.

I tried to back off of a lot of what I really would have to say, but yes, you are right.
I don't know the players in question here but these comments are formed
because I see and hear this all the time... so it may be reasonable to assume
it applies here sometimes. It may or may not, but at least I'm commenting on a real
situation.

In any number of cases, I'll see locally limitations that we all have to some degree
and sound and technique is something that I can generally analyse pretty
acutely.
Is that a good or bad thing..?? well, I'm harder on myself that I am on others.

[chris_b]

Everyone's opinions can vary.

But those with persistently negative opinions are usually in the minority and because of that should be taken in context.

For a few months I've been using my Aguilar TH500 with 2 Barefaced Super Compacts. I think this rig sounds good, and all comments so far have been more than positive. Last week a bass player and our drummer came up to me after the gig and said "Never, ever sell that rig".

I weigh up all comments against my experience and the positive easily outweighs any negativity. That says it all for me.

[discreet]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1452346773' post='2949106']
Everyone's opinions can vary.
[/quote]

Mine don't.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1452346773' post='2949106']
I weigh up all comments against my experience and the positive easily outweighs any negativity. That says it all for me.
[/quote]

Yes... it's one thing to read about gear on teh interwebs (and make a decision about it based on that) and quite another to use it regularly in a recording/rehearsing/gigging situation with a band - and in various different rooms and circumstances.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1452342492' post='2949032']
I don't know the players in question here but these comments are formed
because I see and hear this all the time...

In any number of cases, I'll see locally limitations that we all have to some degree
and sound and technique is something that I can generally analyse pretty
acutely.
[/quote]

I completely get where your coming from, the level of ignorance of the absolute basics of getting a decent/appropriate-to-the-situation bass sound out there in the wild can be positively depressing: uses of extreme smiley face E.Q settings, massive amounts of bass boost, slapping with old dead sound strings (a particular peeve of mine) the list goes on.

I think we need to give our fellow BCers the benefit of the doubt though since as a minimum they have 1) are self aware enough to recognise there is an actual problem 2) are humble enough to seek the advice of others. That puts them well ahead of the game and deserves and deserves a certain minimum level of respect.

Edited January 9, 2016 by bassman7755

[JTUK]

Agree, and the advantage of this place is that we are doing our dirty washing benind closed doors, so to speak which is one reason why you (I) tend to be a bit blunt.

It is not as though no one can learn anything new or get another spin but after 40 years or so, you'd hope you've picked up stuff and can pass it on.
I've far more time for people who ask questions, log it, and weigh it up with what they have accumulated ..not assuming that all advice is good advice or applicable, rather than remain clueless and need to take photos of the amp settings in order to be able to get sound from it... and be totally lost with out that aid which is something that really shows that that person doesn't understand how his kit works....even after 5-6 of owning that kit..
But hey..people use what they use they way they use it...and are 'judged' on that.

[lo-freq]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1452276743' post='2948480']
That is a good question and I believe that most players don't help themselves in this regard.

Depends what drives their desire for the sound they play with.
Mostly I think that limitation is with the player themselves and the technique they use.
Even trying another sound is tough technically if you don't sound any good using it.

For me... I use shelving amps and predominately 12" with a horn.
I make use of mids over bass..and keep bass as low as I can..
This should not be confused with not having a full sound but it is the reason
why I never suffer boom and also it shouldn't be honky or nasally
The low end is full but not shaking...

Ideally I use a 210 on top of a 212 but mostly I go with 2x112 with a horn.
Horn half way up and no bass on the active EQ..

At no point will the sound get buried if everyone is sensible, but most gtrs are a bit oblivious to this
so I like to use guys that colour their parts as opposed to riff all over everything.
This is why I dislike most 3 pieces as the gtr seems to take this as a chance to fill everything with his
'chord' work which is often not very sospisticated and fills too much in verse where he should back off
and drops out for solos where the song needs the lift...

If people leave sonic space it is easy..get into fights over that space and you end up with a mess...

My sound sits around the kit...not fits through it..and keys play a higher register.
Gtrs fit over and around those parts..one has the main part and the other has the colour.

NO POWER CHORDS

And basically if the song doesn't work with just bass and drums and needs the keys and/or gtrs to drive
it then you are losing the battle.
Beware of chords players who think they should always drive songs.

That is to start with... but before that you need to pick the players who can do this..
[/quote]
I agree that there are a lot of players out there who either 'dial in' what they consider perfect tone when they're at home & expect that to translate to any given environment or they just think that a really strong, powerful low end tone is good tone (when it is usually totally mucking up the entire band's sound).
I hate boomy tone, so I use my milk crate & then EQ around what the room gives me (taking into account the other players in the band).

You are fortunate to have the options of playing with musicians who know how to fill their space tastefully.
I've only run across a very few & I've been at it awhile.

[Kevin Dean]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quest-Leisure-Duratech-Evesham-Folding-Table-Camping-Caravan-Picnic-Carry-Handle/371337918069?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D004d3eb748b94878822e95a62fa8fe46%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D371337918069

this is what I've just purchased , just the right size for the super 12 , 26cm or 45 cm height . I'll see how well it works .

[EBS_freak]

This thread.

[discreet]

[quote name='Kevin Dean' timestamp='1452766642' post='2953178']
[url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quest-Leisure-Duratech-Evesham-Folding-Table-Camping-Caravan-Picnic-Carry-Handle/371337918069?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D004d3eb748b94878822e95a62fa8fe46%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D371337918069"]http://www.ebay.co.u...%3D371337918069[/url] this is what I've just purchased , just the right size for the super 12 , 26cm or 45 cm height . I'll see how well it works .
[/quote]

That is [i]exactly[/i] the right size for my Schroeder 1212L, to the cm..! May have to check that out, thanks.
Do you think it will support 18kg at the 45cm setting, though..?

Edited January 14, 2016 by discreet

[chris_b]

Don't forget the tablecloth and the lace doilies.

[discreet]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1452773241' post='2953279']
Don't forget the tablecloth and the lace doilies.
[/quote]

Ha. Might as well have a sofa and standard lamp too, just to make it homely.

[fatback]

Raising or tilting a cab is a perfectly sensible way of hearing yourself better. If you raise more than a couple of feet though, you'll lose volume because of a lack of boundary reinforcement from the floor surface reflections (or something )

This is a very noticeable effect. No problem if you don't raise too high or tilt too much. As somebody said, the biggest problem is posed by very tight stages, where the speaker has to be close to you. Even then, if you're gong through the PA you can raise the speaker on a keyboard stand almost to chest height and the loss of volume doesn't matter so much; it'll still be loud enough for monitoring. The biggest problem is a tight stage and backline only imo.

Edited January 14, 2016 by fatback

[discreet]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1452787310' post='2953525']
Raising or tilting a cab is a perfectly sensible way of hearing yourself better. If you raise more than a couple of feet though, you'll lose volume because of a lack of boundary reinforcement from the floor surface reflections (or something )
[/quote]

This from Bill Fitzmaurice and I hope he won't mind that I pinched it from another thread about cab-tilting:

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]"The picture below shows +/- 30 degree dispersion, which is about average in the upper mids from a bass cab. In the upper frame the cab flat on the floor puts the audience within the dispersion pattern, but not the player. In the lower frame with the cab tilted both the audience and player are within the dispersion pattern.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The issue with lifting the cab is that if you lift a small cab high enough off the floor to hear the mids at close range you will lose boundary reinforcement in the midbass. That can be beneficial, if the room is boomy, as that will reduce the output in the boom frequencies. But in a dead room you may not want that reduction in the midbass. If you want to be ready for any contingency have the ability to either tilt or lift the cab to suit the room."[/font][/color]

[Kevin Dean]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1452771055' post='2953239']
That is [i]exactly[/i] the right size for my Schroeder 1212L, to the cm..! May have to check that out, thanks.
Do you think it will support 18kg at the 45cm setting, though..?
[/quote]it seems well made , I'll try it in a couple of days , I'm going to try it at 26cm with my super12T & 45cm with my super compact when it comes . plus I'm gong to get a nice comfy chair & have a nice cup of tea after every 5 songs .

[sunburstjazz1967]

Nothing worse than a gig where you forget your bass and the single audience member only goes and wears exactly the same thing as you!

[BluRay]

[quote name='Kevin Dean' timestamp='1452766642' post='2953178']
[url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quest-Leisure-Duratech-Evesham-Folding-Table-Camping-Caravan-Picnic-Carry-Handle/371337918069?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D004d3eb748b94878822e95a62fa8fe46%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D371337918069"]http://www.ebay.co.u...%3D371337918069[/url]

this is what I've just purchased , just the right size for the super 12 , 26cm or 45 cm height . I'll see how well it works .
[/quote]

We've hit the point where I've stopped being jealous of your rig. That's a £29.99 GAS killer!

[discreet]

[quote name='BluRay' timestamp='1452850733' post='2954014']
We've hit the point where I've stopped being jealous of your rig. That's a £29.99 GAS killer!
[/quote]

It's a triumph of function over form!