Starting a band without a gigging audience in mind

[odysseus]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1451689943' post='2942603']
For me playing covers is also creative and fun especially if your geting decent pay.
[/quote]

Well it can be fun for sure. I don't know about creative, unless your doing some sort of reinterpretation. Creative to me means bringing something new to the table. Also, your quote above seems to link creativity and fun to money - I'm not sure if that was your intention or not.



[quote name='blue' timestamp='1451689943' post='2942603']
I think this whole creative thing in some cases is overplayed as well as an excuse for some that have problems getting consistent bookings.[/quote]

Creativity and writing of music is an important part of being a musician for many, but not all. It's what you want it to be. No excuses required. Some of us don't need to get involved in some sort of 'competition' where the number of gigs in the diary decides the winner. I guess it's a part of the hobby element of music that many of us enjoy. I also surf, cycle and lift weights, but I don't expect to compete and get paid for that either. Similar principle.


[quote name='blue' timestamp='1451689943' post='2942603']
And I'm never sure about this "I don't need the money, I have a job". Seems like a slap in the face for those of us doing this for a living.
[/quote]

It doesn't matter what other people think as long as you're getting what you want out of it. Music for me is a hobby. For you it is a job. The dynamics are different. If you want to take it as a slap in the face, that's entirely up to you, but that isn't the way it was intended. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

As long as we're playing and enjoying it, it's all good IMO

Edited January 2, 2016 by odysseus

[blue]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1451723865' post='2942698']


I would urge you not to take this so personally , perhaps see it like a guy who loves cabinet making in his garage at weekends , but doesn't do it as a professional during the week.[/quote]

No, these guys are trying to get a dig in on those of out here struggling.It always comes across as:

"I have straight gig and don't need the money. I'm better than you."

So, no I don't and won't see it as or compare it to a guy making cabinets as a hobby.

I'm certainly not going to get up in someone's face and say I figured out a way to do this for a living and you couldn't.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='odysseus' timestamp='1451737405' post='2942906']


Well it can be fun for sure. I don't know about creative, unless your doing some sort of reinterpretation. Creative to me means bringing something new to the table. Also, your quote above seems to link creativity and fun to money - I'm not sure if that was your intention or not.





Creativity and writing of music is an important part of being a musician for many, but not all. It's what you want it to be. No excuses required. Some of us don't need to get involved in some sort of 'competition' where the number of gigs in the diary decides the winner. I guess it's a part of the hobby element of music that many of us enjoy. I also surf, cycle and lift weights, but I don't expect to compete and get paid for that either. Similar principle.




It doesn't matter what other people think as long as you're getting what you want out of it. Music for me is a hobby. For you it is a job. The dynamics are different. If you want to take it as a slap in the face, that's entirely up to you, but that isn't the way it was intended. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

As long as we're playing and enjoying it, it's all good IMO
[/quote]

Well yeah that's how I see it. Some chose this as a hobby and some chose to do it for a living. Although with me it was a "calling" not a choice.

What I have a problem with is the snobbery expressed by some. Like, "I have a real job and don't need the money"

Funny, I never see any of these guys that dont need the money turning it down When they are handed their cut.

And by the way, anytime any if us picks up a bass and starts playing it's creative as far as I'm concerned.

This notion that creativity is limited to those performing original material is rubbish as far as I'm concerned.

Blue

Edited January 4, 2016 by blue

[ahpook]

Almost every band I've been in has been started purely to try and make interesting music.

Adverts in shops or online, getting together in practice rooms, people bringing ideas, working them out, honing the songs, maybe the odd person coming and going. Play a few gigs, write more songs, see what happens. Enjoy the process. Once or twice that process has led to a modicum of (relative) success, and almost everyone had day jobs.


Little thought for the market or the audience....just enjoying making music. Seems like a damn good way of spending your time if you ask me.

Edited January 4, 2016 by ahpook

[blue]

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1451870755' post='2944245']
Almost every band I've been in has been started purely to try and make interesting music.

Adverts in shops or online, getting together in practice rooms, people bringing ideas, working them out, honing the songs, maybe the odd person coming and going. Play a few gigs, write more songs, see what happens. Enjoy the process. Once or twice that process has led to a modicum of (relative) success, and almost everyone had day jobs.


Little thought for the market or the audience....just enjoying making music. Seems like a damn good way of spending your time if you ask me.[/quote]

It's not a good way or the way some of us want to spend our time. We also put a lot of work, ideas and creativity into this but are looking for more in return..


Even those of us on the other side of the fence are constantly trying to make music interesting. However We want to not only make it interesting and fun for us as musicians, we also want the end product to be fun and interesting for an audience.


However, when we present the finished product to an audience at a gig and it works, that's our reward and we love It's when we make that connection the magic happens.

For others It's merely the sole opportunity to make music.The simple enjoyment of making music. Some of us need and want more than that.

Remember, I can't argue that there is not room for both approaches, because i think there is.

Blue

Edited January 4, 2016 by blue

[Leonard Smalls]

For me, making music is most certainly not about making money.
It's about playing stuff that I like and had a hand in inventing.
If I get paid as well that's a bonus - though most folks wouldn't fork out to hear my racket!
Back in the early 90s we spent years both headlining places like the Marquee, supporting Carter and Gaye Bykers (usually for pay of around £50[i] between us -[/i] the van and roadie cost that!) to audiences of 2000, or playing gigs where virtually no-one turned up. All because we loved it. Shame we didn't make it, but we had a great time - here's a review (contains swearing!) from the Melody Maker:
http://www.pushstuff.co.uk/mmlives/barfroco110591.html

I'm not saying if we'd been doing covers for functions etc we wouldn't have had such a good time (we wouldn't have lost so much money!) - it's a question of each to their own, what you actually want out of music...

[TimR]

[quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1451896762' post='2944279']
For me, making music is most certainly not about making money.
It's about playing stuff that I like and had a hand in inventing.
If I get paid as well that's a bonus - though most folks wouldn't fork out to hear my racket!
Back in the early 90s we spent years both headlining places like the Marquee, supporting Carter and Gaye Bykers (usually for pay of around £50[i] between us -[/i] the van and roadie cost that!) to audiences of 2000, or playing gigs where virtually no-one turned up. All because we loved it. Shame we didn't make it, but we had a great time - here's a review (contains swearing!) from the Melody Maker:
http://www.pushstuff.co.uk/mmlives/barfroco110591.html

I'm not saying if we'd been doing covers for functions etc we wouldn't have had such a good time (we wouldn't have lost so much money!) - it's a question of each to their own, what you actually want out of music...
[/quote]

Spent so much money.

[TimR]

I think the title of the thread is misleading.

The objective is to gig with good music to an audience. What is different is you're creating a product that you don't know whether there will be a market for.

In a business sense it's suicide, although you're not going to be investing hundreds of pounds in it so it's not a massive risk financially and could be well worth it.

It's the kind of thing you see on the apprentice. "I want you to create a product from scratch and sell it." It's really backwards thinking. Really you should spot a gap, do some market research, see if there is an audience, then sell.

Essentially, I think what I'm saying is; don't invest hours perfecting loads of material. Throw together 6 songs, find a small multi band gig and see what the audience reaction is to it.

[ahpook]

[quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1451896762' post='2944279']
For me, making music is most certainly not about making money.
It's about playing stuff that I like and had a hand in inventing.
If I get paid as well that's a bonus - though most folks wouldn't fork out to hear my racket!
Back in the early 90s we spent years both headlining places like the Marquee, supporting Carter and Gaye Bykers (usually for pay of around £50[i] between us -[/i] the van and roadie cost that!) to audiences of 2000, or playing gigs where virtually no-one turned up. All because we loved it. Shame we didn't make it, but we had a great time - here's a review (contains swearing!) from the Melody Maker:
[url="http://www.pushstuff.co.uk/mmlives/barfroco110591.html"]http://www.pushstuff...roco110591.html[/url]
[/quote]

Sounds like you're a man after my own heart - great review

Edited January 4, 2016 by ahpook

[odysseus]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1451868935' post='2944243']
What I have a problem with is the snobbery expressed by some. Like, "I have a real job and don't need the money"

Funny, I never see any of these guys that dont need the money turning it down When they are handed their cut.
[/quote]

It's not snobbery, it's reality. Where I live, we don't expect to get paid for playing original material, so if you want to gig solely original material, you're going to need money from somewhere else to live on.... like a job. So.... there ain't a cut. Mind you, I live at the ass-end of Britain. Maybe things are different in the States.



[quote name='blue' timestamp='1451868935' post='2944243']
And by the way, anytime any if us picks up a bass and starts playing it's creative as far as I'm concerned.

This notion that creativity is limited to those performing original material is rubbish as far as I'm concerned.
[/quote]

Many people consider the notion that making money off the back of other people's work can be called 'creativity' is stretching the definition of the term 'creativity' to well past its elastic limit. Such are the differences.... *shrug*

[TimR]

[quote name='odysseus' timestamp='1451903089' post='2944345']


It's not snobbery, it's reality. Where I live, we don't expect to get paid for playing original material, so if you want to gig solely original material, you're going to need money from somewhere else to live on.... like a job. So.... there ain't a cut. Mind you, I live at the ass-end of Britain. Maybe things are different in the States.





Many people consider the notion that making money off the back of other people's work can be called 'creativity' is stretching the definition of the term 'creativity' to well past its elastic limit. Such are the differences.... *shrug*
[/quote]

You're still creating something. Regardless whether it's a copy.

Doesn't matter how closely you think you're copying the original you'll always be putting your own feel on it.

A better word might be 'making'.

[odysseus]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1451903404' post='2944347']


You're still creating something. Regardless whether it's a copy.

Doesn't matter how closely you think you're copying the original you'll always be putting your own feel on it.

A better word might be 'making'.
[/quote]

Quite possibly. It can be considered as a spectrum IMO.

[ahpook]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1451900787' post='2944319']
The objective is to gig with good music to an audience.
[/quote]

Well, my objective in getting together with other musicians is to try and make some interesting music.

That's [i]my[/i] reason, if anyone has others, that's great too !

[TimR]

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1451904012' post='2944354']


Well, my objective in getting together with other musicians is to try and make some interesting music.

That's [i]my[/i] reason, if anyone has others, that's great too !
[/quote]

I thought that's what the OP was asking.

Getting musicians together to play in a studio is pretty simple really. It's whether you can do that with the aim of gigging but without a specific audience in mind.

[ahpook]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1451904569' post='2944360']
It's whether you can do that with the aim of gigging but without a specific audience in mind.
[/quote]

IME it's been a matter of finding out which places will put bands on and then getting in contact with the venues or other bands to put on a show together.

Is that a 'specific audience' ?

Edited January 4, 2016 by ahpook

[TimR]

Yes. I think he wants to gig but isn't picking tunes to reflect an established genre or group of people.

Just tunes that he hopes will appeal to an audience.

[JTUK]

There is no way a gig would be viable for me if it didn't pay and people didn't turn up.
So as long as it does that, it is ok with me...as long as I like what we are
doing. Otherwise I may as well just do function work.
Facebook and the like makes these things so much easier... but then it
is easier for everyone.

I stick by my assertion that there are too many cheap gigs as options
which waters down the product/standard or whatever, and also the potential audience.
In short it cheapens music in so many senses.

[BottomE]

There's a guy round here (singer) who said that hes not prepared to perform for less than £150 a night, says its not worth his while. Gets about 5 gigs a year.

[JTUK]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1451937336' post='2944831']
There's a guy round here (singer) who said that hes not prepared to perform for less than £150 a night, says its not worth his while. Gets about 5 gigs a year.
[/quote]

I'd say he isn't working it very hard then..so presumably 5 a year suits him. It also depends whether he is 'worth'
his £150 too.

[blue]

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1451904012' post='2944354']


Well, my objective in getting together with other musicians is to try and make some interesting music.

That's [i]my[/i] reason, if anyone has others, that's great too !
[/quote]

This whole "make things Interesting" is a little odd.I say make good music and leave it at that.

We have a nice loyal following and these folks are not looking for " interesting " ,they're looking to have fun and so are we.

I think "interesting" has it's place. Usually that place is the bedroom or if your playing to a seated audience in theater. Over here in the States, bar crowds don't want "interesting".

I love it when I see our 60 year olds smile when we start an old Peter Greene or Savoy Brown tune. They feel young again.


Blue

Edited January 4, 2016 by blue

[BottomE]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1451937544' post='2944836']
I'd say he isn't working it very hard then..so presumably 5 a year suits him. It also depends whether he is 'worth'
his £150 too.
[/quote]
He just wants the cream. His pursuit of which has meant he's missed out on some lovely cheeses. I mean a band that might want to use him are going to have to turn down £100 a night gigs unless they are prepared to pay him more than themselves.

[JTUK]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1451939690' post='2944875']
He just wants the cream. His pursuit of which has meant he's missed out on some lovely cheeses. I mean a band that might want to use him are going to have to turn down £100 a night gigs unless they are prepared to pay him more than themselves.
[/quote]


If he is that good, that happens.
This is why bands aren't equal...IMO.

Nice idea but not really practical.

Any decent guy will likely know their worth and if they know they are the diference will be telling you what they go out for.
It just depends how much of a potential arse you are prepared to put up with... but then they could be the difference
between £750 a gig and £1250 or whatever so it costs you more per head to 'tolerate' but you end up grossing more.

So, in principle, I'd consider paying it ..if the gig could afford it... etc etc ..

[blue]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1451945368' post='2944966']
If he is that good, that happens.
This is why bands aren't equal...IMO.

Nice idea but not really practical.

Any decent guy will likely know their worth and if they know they are the diference will be telling you what they go out for.
It just depends how much of a potential arse you are prepared to put up with... but then they could be the difference
between £750 a gig and £1250 or whatever so it costs you more per head to 'tolerate' but you end up grossing more.

So, in principle, I'd consider paying it ..if the gig could afford it... etc etc ..
[/quote]

I say at the bar band level where the whole band fee is $400.00-$500.00 it should always be an equal split. It's not enough money to futzing over somebody getting more or less.

If your in that 2k and up range then there's a margin you can play with.

Blue

Edited January 5, 2016 by blue

[RhysP]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1451937801' post='2944841']
I love it when I see our 60 year olds smile when we start an old Peter Greene or Savoy Brown tune. They feel young again.
Blue
[/quote]

Yeah, it's like when my grandmother was in a home & they'd all sing Vera Lynn songs & think they were about to be bombed by the Germans.

[fatback]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1451650076' post='2942037']
I have played with various covers/functions bands over recent years, but all with the main focus being on the gigs I get to do, regardless of my numbness toward the material.

Currently I am in an 80s tribute , I love the material , gigs are always a blast and we have good gigs booked in, but again its all about the gigs and want goes down well.

I am thinking of forming something with the reverse intention, to get together and play material that doesn't really have an easy audience entry level, and focus on something that even if it did, we may not hit the mark (maybe folk or even obscure funk covers) . I have a good network of players I think I could find the right people, and know others that would be up for something like this.

I don't think I have explained it well, but question is, has anyone done this, started up a project knowing it wont have an easy audience to target, but just for the music and fun of doing something different (different for those involved at least)
[/quote]

All the best bands I was ever in started this way. The best thing in the world is when people get together because they want to play the songs, feel they could do something worthwhile, and for no other reason.

If you do it putting the music first, the audience will find you anyway.

Go for it.

Edited January 4, 2016 by fatback