Starting a band without a gigging audience in mind

[blue]

[quote name='jazzyvee' timestamp='1452052207' post='2945929']
I would love to do that and have been trying to find like minded musicians for a good few years to do something like this. Unfortunately for me, musicians for the genre I want to cover are really only interested in doing session gigs so joining a band taking a long term view like "rehearsing the band till its absolutely right" is not usually on their list of priorities. They see music as a job that has to pay.
Whilst I understand and respect their stance I sometimes wonder why some pro musicians aren't able to separate their music activities into those which are to earn a living and those for enjoyment or a hobby that does not necessarily need to make money.

For example, if my day job was a freelance programmer writing software for corporate clients, but as a hobby I decided to learn to write apps for mobile phones and tablets. Both are writing software but I only expect to get paid for what I do for a living and would not expect to get paid for the software I write as part of my "hobby" even if there is a cost outlay to do it. However If I became competent at mobile phone app development then i may indeed get paid but that would be a bonus not a driver.

I hope that makes sense.
[/quote]

If you have a skill a product or a service people want, I say charge them.

Blue

[RhysP]

[quote name='jazzyvee' timestamp='1452052207' post='2945929']
I sometimes wonder why some pro musicians aren't able to separate their music activities into those which are to earn a living and those for enjoyment or a hobby that does not necessarily need to make money.
[/quote]

The few long term pro musicians I know are all so jaded by the whole thing that they no longer play any music for enjoyment or as a hobby. If they've got any time off the last thing they want to do is play.

[TimR]

The pros I know don't even rehearse for their day gig. Maybe one initial day long rehearsal but that would be it.

"Rehearsing until it's absolutely right." Might be where you're going wrong.

[Leonard Smalls]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1452064821' post='2945948']
The few long term pro musicians I know are all so jaded by the whole thing that they no longer play any music for enjoyment or as a hobby. If they've got any time off the last thing they want to do is play.
[/quote]

It's always said that the dream is to make money out of doing something you really enjoy doing...
However, I know quite a few people who do their "hobby" as a job; in the case of climbers, frinstance, many no longer go out for a climb with their mates because they're too busy teaching numpties how not to tangle their ropes, or trying to stop unruly kids dropping rocks off a cliff. So they basically equate climbing with money making - and no longer enjoy it for what it is.
Which is why I never became a climbing instructor!
Similarly, I did a bit of session work many years ago. I hated being told what to play, or having to be part of music I actively hated. I stopped before I was asked to play in (the horror!) a [i]musical[/i], and music stopped being fun for me...
Now I only play music that I like, with people I like being with. As we all have other jobs we're able to do that - just for fun, same as I go climbing just for fun. Doesn't mean I'm more or less competent than many "pros" just because I'm only a "hobbyist"! It just means I want different things from them...

[Truckstop]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1451689943' post='2942603']

And I'm never sure about this "I don't need the money, I have a job". Seems like a slap in the face for those of us doing this for a living.


Blue
[/quote]

Many apologies Blue, I read this paragraph in the wrong way and took umbrage when I should not have.

Alex

[jazzyvee]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1452064821' post='2945948']
The few long term pro musicians I know are all so jaded by the whole thing that they no longer play any music for enjoyment or as a hobby. If they've got any time off the last thing they want to do is play.
[/quote]

I know a few of those too. I know one guy who has been a pro musician since the late 70's and more or less stopped touring full time about 8 years back and he says he is now very selective about what gigs he does because he doesn't see the need to waste his time with people who do not have a professional attitude to what they are doing.

I hope I always find a way to enjoy playing music at whatever level I can play competently.

Edited January 6, 2016 by jazzyvee

[blue]

[quote name='jazzyvee' timestamp='1452104285' post='2946483']


I know a few of those too. I know one guy who has been a pro musician since the late 70's and more or less stopped touring full time about 8 years back and he says he is now very selective about what gigs he does because he doesn't see the need to waste his time with people who do not have a professional attitude to what they are doing.

I hope I always find a way to enjoy playing music at whatever level I can play competently.
[/quote]

I think the term pro means different things to different people.

I play for a living primarily at the bar band level ( I think we have established that bar business in the States is different than your pub business.) I wouldn't say because I play for a living I'm a pro. I've always felt maybe our peers or other people decided if were are pros or not.

I am not sure where this notion comes from that if you do this for a living and it's a business it's no longer enjoyable?

I think that's rubbish. When I started playing for a living , I became a better bass player and entertainer. It also became a lot more fun.

For some of us earning money from a craft we have invested a lot of time and effort into is fun,

Blue

Edited January 6, 2016 by blue

[TimR]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1452111660' post='2946626']


I think the term pro means different things to different people.

I play for a living primarily at the bar band level ( I think we have established that bar business in the States is different than your pub business.)

I am not sure where this notion comes from that if you do thus for a living and it's a business it's no longer enjoyable?

I think that's rubbish. When I started playing for a living , I became a better bass player and entertainer. It also became a lot more fun.

Blue
[/quote]

It's not rubbish, it's just a sweeping generalisation.

I know plenty of pro-musicians who teach for free and write scores for amateur orchestras for free. They love the sound and wouldn't get paid for a proffesional orchestra to play their arrangements.

However, they have a very low boredom threshold when it comes to practicing. They get it right first time and don't enjoy playing the same tune correctly several times while someone makes mistakes.

[blue]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1452111984' post='2946632']


It's not rubbish, it's just a sweeping generalisation.

I know plenty of pro-musicians who teach for free and write scores for amateur orchestras for free. They love the sound and wouldn't get paid for a proffesional orchestra to play their arrangements.

However, they have a very low boredom threshold when it comes to practicing. They get it right first time and don't enjoy playing the same tune correctly several times while someone makes mistakes.
[/quote]

I'm really talking about rock guys playing 1.5 fest and fairs and 4 hour bar shows. Not lessons or orchestrations.

Blue

[TimR]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1452112369' post='2946644']


I'm really talking about rock guys playing 1.5 fest and fairs and 4 hour bar shows. Not lessons or orchestrations.

Blue
[/quote]

I'm talking about all pro musicians.

How much rehearsal would you want to do for a start up band before the first gig?

I think anymore than 8 hours and I'd be climbing the walls.

.

Edited January 6, 2016 by TimR

[JTUK]

[quote name='jazzyvee' timestamp='1452104285' post='2946483']
I know a few of those too. I know one guy who has been a pro musician since the late 70's and more or less stopped touring full time about 8 years back and he says he is now very selective about what gigs he does because he doesn't see the need to waste his time with people who do not have a professional attitude to what they are doing.

[b]I hope I always find a way to enjoy playing music at whatever level I can play competently[/b].
[/quote]

I think you have to get very picky about what you play and who you play with...which you can afford to be
if you don't 'need' the money.

You may have made so much from music you can pick and choose or you have an alternative income.

After 30 yrs, schepping up and down the M1 and getting back in the early hours becomes work just like
anything else.
And you can kill what you used to really love.
I gave up for 2 years and I REALLY needed that break.

I'm a better player now but I regulate it so much so I don't do
my version of 'crap' gigs...as I know it will stop me playing again.

I view 'full time' now as the
standard of living is poorer and you aren't even in love with it
the way you used to be so it is lose-lose. IMO.

Edited January 6, 2016 by JTUK

[blue]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1452112595' post='2946650']


I'm talking about all pro musicians.

How much rehearsal would you want to do for a start up band before the first gig?

I think anymore than 8 hours and I'd be climbing the walls.

.
[/quote]

That's a tough one. First of all, I contend that most "start ups" in The States never see their first gig.

Another point, there are really talented musicians even pros that are not real quick with learning new material.

I can't learn 60 songs I don't know in 8 hours and be gig ready, And I'll challenge those that say they can.

Blue

Edited January 6, 2016 by blue

[skej21]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1452115425' post='2946709']


That's a tough one. First of all, I contend that most "start ups" in The States never see their first gig.

Another point, there are really talented musicians even pros that are not real quick with learning new material.

I can't learn 60 songs I don't know in 8 hours and be gig ready, And I'll challenge those that say they can.

Blue
[/quote]

I've done this before and I imagine I'm not alone. Had to learn an artist's entire back catalogue in 3 days, then had a full day Friday rehearsal (7 hours) before the Saturday gig which was a lengthy drive away.

But you've missed the point. You don't go to a rehearsal to learn the songs. You agree the set, learn the songs (structures, keys, important features) and then you have a rehearsal to polish the performance.

Edited January 6, 2016 by skej21

[blue]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1452116341' post='2946727']


I've done this before and I imagine I'm not alone. Had to learn an artist's entire back catalogue in 3 days.[/quote]

Ok, here's my challenge, prove it.

See what I mean. Unless you were reading charts or his back catalog was 12 songs,I say no way.

With all due respect.

Blue

Edited January 6, 2016 by blue

[blue]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1452116341' post='2946727']

But you've missed the point. You don't go to a rehearsal to learn the songs. You agree the set, learn the songs (structures, keys, important features) and then you have a rehearsal to polish the performance.
[/quote]

No, I get that. Trying to learn material at the rehearsal is usually very unproductive.

Blue

[skej21]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1452117106' post='2946741']


Ok, here's my challenge, prove it.

See what I mean. Unless you we're reading charts or his back catalog was 12 songs,I say no way.

With all due respect.

Blue
[/quote]

Short of asking him to sign up to basschat just to settle some sort of schoolyard argument you wish to start, it's impossible to prove and this will no doubt allow you to 'validate' your 'point'. Respectfully, you're entitled to an opinion and believe what you like but that doesn't make you right.

His back catalogue was 40 tracks, which I learnt by transcribing charts with a few bits of notation for characteristic rhythmic phrases etc from his CDs before memorising them. We then ironed out the details of the set in the 7 hour rehearsal session and went to play the gig.

Granted, it was an intense 3 days to get all the charts written and memorised (I got very little sleep/rest), followed by the pressure of the rehearsal and gig (which was at a blues club with a fair few people attending) but word of mouth spread and as a result of being professional and turning up prepared and nailing the gig, I got a call from the drummer asking to dep for his functions band as they'd lost their bass player. I got two weeks to learn their 50 song set which was a fair bit easier but transcribing, playing from memory and having the ability to play at a decent standard are elements of my playing that I've been crafting for years and they just happened to culminate to help me compete those specific tasks.

Additionally, im under no illusion that other guys might not want to put as much time into crafting those skills and that's cool too but I think it's a tad ironic for you to be so dismissive of hard work in respect of my situation saying 'it's not possible', 'I challenge you to prove it' etc when you are so defensive when people claim you don't put just as much dedication and time into crafting your covers band...

Edited January 6, 2016 by skej21

[TimR]

It's unusual to only get 3days.

Didn't Gary Moore learn the Thin Lizzy set on the plane on the way to the concert?

[skej21]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1452118597' post='2946768']
It's unusual to only get 3days.

Didn't Gary Moore learn the Thin Lizzy set on the plane on the way to the concert?
[/quote]

Artist and previous bass player had a bust up and I had played with the drummer for years at college and he knew I could do the job, so I got the call :-)

Edited January 6, 2016 by skej21

[blue]

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1452117892' post='2946759']


Short of asking him to sign up to basschat just to settle some sort of schoolyard argument you wish to start, it's impossible to prove and this will no doubt allow you to 'validate' your 'point'. Respectfully, you're entitled to an opinion and believe what you like but that doesn't make you right.

His back catalogue was 40 tracks, which I learnt by transcribing charts with a few bits of notation for characteristic rhythmic phrases etc from his CDs before memorising them. We then ironed out the details of the set in the 7 hour rehearsal session and went to play the gig.

Granted, it was an intense 3 days to get all the charts written and memorised (I got very little sleep/rest), followed by the pressure of the rehearsal and gig (which was at a blues club with a fair few people attending) but word of mouth spread and as a result of being professional and turning up prepared and nailing the gig, I got a call from the drummer asking to dep for his functions band as they'd lost their bass player. I got two weeks to learn their 50 song set which was a fair bit easier but transcribing, playing from memory and having the ability to play at a decent standard are elements of my playing that I've been crafting for years and they just happened to culminate to help me compete those specific tasks.

Additionally, im under no illusion that other guys might not want to put as much time into crafting those skills and that's cool too but I think it's a tad ironic for you to be so dismissive of hard work in respect of my situation saying 'it's not possible', 'I challenge you to prove it' etc when you are so defensive when people claim you don't put just as much dedication and time into crafting your covers band...
[/quote]

No, I'm not a complete hole. After reading the above with the extenuating circumstances I believe you did it.

I asked you to prove it, and you did.

Blue

Edited January 6, 2016 by blue

[odysseus]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1452064821' post='2945948']


The few long term pro musicians I know are all so jaded by the whole thing that they no longer play any music for enjoyment or as a hobby. If they've got any time off the last thing they want to do is play.
[/quote]

A friend of mine has been in a function band for years and can no longer stomach rehearsing for that band or even doing anything new. I tried to recruit him for a project last year, he turned up for a couple of jams than admitted after that he hates playing guitar these days. It's a massive shame because he spent years learning his craft, has a great skill set, and probably knows more theory than anyone I know - I've learned heaps from him. He's leaving the current band - maybe after having a lay-off he'll come back and rediscover the fun side? I certainly hope so, losing great musicians is not good.

[odysseus]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1451993305' post='2945243']
My most recent project is a mostly instrumental rock band. It's crazy music with a crazier image. I honestly never thought we'd win over any audiences as it's all so weird, but it's been very successful so far! So, you never know what's going to go down well

I wonder what causes some of these threads to turn into an "originals vs covers" battle? I play in 4 originals bands but I really don't care what anyone else does. As far as I'm concerned, once the song is written, we're all the same, out there playing to audience, trying to win them over
[/quote]

Amen to that!

[funkgod]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1452030433' post='2945786'] That clip is crazy, if anything it tells me more about how far reaching James Brown's music was and still is. Blue [/quote]

Yep.. He da man.....
i love JB music, . . . aint nuthin tha sits in the pocket better.
Have you seen the film Blue ? watch it, its Epic
Chadwick Boseman was Awsome
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXnIz63pdlI"]https://www.youtube....h?v=vXnIz63pdlI[/url]

i started to realise when i started writing songs how much JB is in my writing/playing
i use to think, tell people its Maceo, as i have i think evething maceo has ever recorded.
but no, its all roots JB ( with more than a peppering of T.O.Power)...
ah,,,,, another Topic i think.

Edited January 7, 2016 by funkgod

[blue]

[quote name='funkgod' timestamp='1452198649' post='2947596']


Yep.. He da man.....
i love JB music, . . . aint nuthin tha sits in the pocket better.
Have you seen the film Blue ? watch it, its Epic
Chadwick Boseman was Awsome
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXnIz63pdlI"]https://www.youtube....h?v=vXnIz63pdlI[/url]

i started to realise when i started writing songs how much JB is in my writing/playing
i use to think, tell people its Maceo, as i have i think evething maceo has ever recorded.
but no, its all roots JB ( with more than a peppering of T.O.Power)...
ah,,,,, another Topic i think.
[/quote]

I saw the movie, didn't think much if it. There wasn't much JB music in the film.

It's ok,I had the opportunity to see all the great funk and R&B artists live several times when they were in their prime. Probably saw James at least half dozen times.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1452118597' post='2946768']
It's unusual to only get 3days.

Didn't Gary Moore learn the Thin Lizzy set on the plane on the way to the concert?
[/quote]

Maybe, for Gary it was probably easy. However I'm sure their set list was a little different than 4 hours worth of bar band material at least 60 different songs.

Blue

[12stringbassist]

I tend to use jam nights to get my frustrations out of my system and play stuff my band can't do.... with a built-in receptive audience.
You could do that with like-minded people and build up a set and then see if you can manage two bands or not.