christofloffer Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 ok so you may want to roll your eyes, sigh, tut, huff and shrug your shoulders in exasperation with this one. i have been recording stuff for my own amusement for a few years now. up until recently i have not been all that fussed about the finer aspects of it as my gear is very limited, as are my funds, so i just settled into a more basic overall sound. however since picking up the bass properly (and thoroughly enjoying playing and writing with it!) i am finding myself being left wanting for tone. i play away through the amp and i like the sound well enough, deep and low but reasonably defined. however when i try and record it it becomes muddy and poorly defined. its fine for doing house, downtempo and background stuff but i dont like it. i am trying to record things that are some way between deep house and funk. so i want a deep thud out of the bottom end but the short notes to be audible properly. through the amp i can get this but it is not the same sound as goes into the computer. on the computer the shorter runs and notes just kind of blend out or mix together into a vague warbling kind of noise. so i am recording with Sonar LE, Hydrogen drum machine, and a line into the computer via USB cable on my Boss ME-25. i know the effects processor is designed for guitars and it will have its limitations but through the amp its grand for what i am after. the processor basically splits the signal between the computer and the amp when recording. i have the amp set up entirely neutral with everything set to 0 (halfway on the knobs) to try and remove any alterations in sound. i try to keep the processor as clean as possible too, usually just the compressor on. it has no EQ settings and very limited tone control, so that is a problem. i tried to use my old processor (a ZOOM GFX-3 which i adored, but the pedal broke ) as an EQ before the signal hits the Boss, and i can alter the sound a fair bit before the amp doing this. but as i drop the bass some so clear up the tone it introduces hissing which is obviously not very helpful. even then, when recording it makes very little difference and it still sounds excessively deep and muddy. i tried running it through a marshall amp i have before the processor as again it has a lot of control but that made the whole thing either stupidly quiet, excessively loud or distorted. i have no other way of getting the sound into the computer directly and then Sonar has very little effective control that i can find or understand. i can record through a mic (Samson Q1U) but my room is far from idea with acoustics and the house is not quiet so i end up with a lot of background unless i make everyone shut up, which never makes me very popular. there is obviously a few things that would help, but all my spare money at the moment is going towards a better bass. so buying more gear is not really viable right now. its just annoying as i like the sound from the amp just running through the Boss, i just wish i could get it onto a recording. i had a tune i was going to put into last months composition challenge but i scrapped it as i could get the sound right. my apologies for the wall of text there, my i am not great with technical terms and things so its hard to explain well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliasMooseblaster Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Is there any way for you to hear the raw signal coming out of the Boss? Even with a neutral EQ, every amp will 'colour' the sound it receives to some extent, so there's a good chance the good sound coming out of the amp may be surprisingly different from the signal going in! You're probably right to try and keep your signal chain as uncluttered as possible. I'd be tempted to take the EQ pedal out of it and try to capture as much signal as possible. Then play around with whichever compression and EQ plugins came with Sonar to try and get the signal from the Boss to sound a bit more to your liking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 [quote name='christofloffer' timestamp='1451910178' post='2944416'] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]i play away through the amp and i like the sound well enough, deep and low but reasonably defined. however when i try and record it it becomes muddy and poorly defined.[/font][/color] [/quote] A "deep and low" sound just inst going to record well IME and if you listen to the actual bass sound most commercial recording youl struggle to find one with any appreciable deep lows in the sound. Since it sounds like your not using any EQ when recording it could be a simple as having too much lows from the bass itself, if you have a 2 pickup config then try dialing in more bridge and less neck pickup. If the bass has onboard active EQ try keeping it flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) [quote name='christofloffer' timestamp='1451910178' post='2944416'] ok so you may want to roll your eyes, sigh, tut, huff and shrug your shoulders in exasperation with this one. ... [/quote] We may well, but we all had to start somewhere at some time; you're not alone at all. Many of us will well remember our early struggles. One question, if you will... With what are you listening to your recordings..? Headphones..? A hifi system..? Monitors..? Your bass amp..? The 'listening' quality is a determining factor when judging playback, and will alter very significantly from one system to another. The 'budget' route is quality headphones, but they should be carefully chosen as specifically for mixing, and not for 'ordinary' listening to music. Obviously, the top-quality studio stuff costs a small fortune, but there are many affordable models available if one is not too perfectionist. A hifi system can be a decent compromise, but not all are really capable of delivering the detailed sound required when listening to raw, isolated tracks such as the freshly-recorded bass. There is very often a marked coloration to the sound; this can be compensated for, but this requires some experience and a decent 'reference point'. Studio-quality monitors are fine, but, then again, the acoustics of the room play a non-negligible part in the final sound, and needs to be accounted for. Listening back through the instrument amp..? Not a good idea at all. I find that, with the modest means I have at my disposal, it's not a good idea to record bass with any effects or correction at all before the USB. Assuming the Boss does a reasonable job of substituting for an audio interface, I'd plug the bass into that, and record 'dry', that's to say, no correction, compression, no anything; just the bass into the DAW. Typically, I'd copy that raw bass track and apply software compression and EQ to this copy, mixing in the original, 'dry' bass as required, until I had the sound I'm looking for. I don't use distortion nor 'gain', 'grind' or 'grit', normally, so can't help much if that's what you're after, but for clean, solid bass, that's my starting point. Getting a decent sound out of an amp and cab is a far different proposition, and I don't even try to compare the methods used (I plug the bass straight into the amp, for instance, with never a pedal in sight, and keep the amp 'flat'. All the rest is done with my bass tone controls and my fingers, but the use of a hefty valve amp helps a lot..!). I'm not sure how useful any of this could be; keep asking the questions, though, and the accumulated knowledge of Basschat will unfold for you. Hope this helps; just my tuppence-worth. Edited January 23, 2016 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christofloffer Posted January 24, 2016 Author Share Posted January 24, 2016 well i have been trying a few things out and i think it is half my own inexperience and half my under-par gear. i use a hi-fi system as my computer speakers and, so i use the amp to be able to hear what i am playing whilst still being able to hear the tune. i tried to plug the processor into the stereo but it just made a horrendous noise, so there must be some compatability issue with the cables i have. i also tried to monitor the sound at the processor but i dont have any 1/4 jack headphones and the adapters dont seem to agree with any of the others. some good headphones are on the list but my funds just got decimated and cost me the money i had saved for a new bass so headphones are down on the list now. i did find an equaliser in Sonar but i am not sure how to use it properly, so i am just using trial and error to figure it out. its all in Hz and curves which i have no context for yet so i am just trying something and seeing if i like it or not. i am coming to realise that up until recently i have been recording in a very rudimentary way. fine for sticking song idea together but trying to get nice sounding tunes is a different ball game. i have had to step back a bit and figure out a lot of stuff in more detail. i am frankly starting to regret buying the Boss processor. its fine for guitars if you just want a "close enough" kind of modelling, but my old Zoom GFX-3 eats it for breakfast when it comes to control. if i had known i would have gone onto this stuff more i would have got a usb interface/mixer, for less money. its not too bad but just not as useful as i wanted it to be. i am going to try and mic up the amp and use the Zoom as i can get the tone i want better from that. i want to get a pretty clean tone on recordings, no distortions or things like that. but the bass is largely lost at the moment and lacks a lot of definition. i'm hoping with a bit of practice that i can use that EQ on sonar to cure it as a direct line in makes life much easier than the mic, for me at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Welcome to the world of recording..... You'd do better with a DI, and a mic'ed amp IME. Use a low pass filter on the DI for the bottom and mix it into a high pass filtered amp track for any growl from distortions etc. Try avoiding the obvious kick drum mic on the cab, you aren't so interested in the bottom end from the cone (hint there is hardly any from the cone anyway, it all comes from the port, and is very closely related to the frequency the port is tuned to so avoid it if you dont have stellar gear and ears - keep things simple and use the DI for the low end). I've had excellent results with all sorts of cheapish mics on the cone of bass amps for capturing that mid range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Oh and apply EQ and compression after the fact as a part of mix down. Since you are very new to recording and mixing you cant expect to predetermine what eq and compression will work in the mix at the point of tracking. So do it at mix time for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Or get something like BIAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Try cutting everything below 250hz and then gradually introduce the lower frequency bands one at a time until you can hear them make a difference. Could be a good place to start from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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