christofloffer Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 do you guys think this is possible? i am not dyslexic but i have serious trouble trying learn music theory. i have a grasp of the fundamentals and i can play well enough for my needs. i used to be able to play classical gas at full pace without issue but i couldnt tell you what key it is in. me and a friend have been working together recently and i picked up the bass for it. i am thoroughly enjoying learning to play it properly, and finding all its little uses. it does seem to call for a bit more theory than a guitar though. perhaps its because its because its so important to linking everything together that a slight error is very obvious, but its something i am struggling with. now, i can learn a tab pretty fast and a few hours playing along to the tune and i am happy, but sheet music is voodoo to me. i can play scales fine (not my favourite thing on guitar but i can do it) but i have no idea as to what key i am in until it sounds like a match. to find my place when playing along with someone i have to work my way up the neck until i find the right spot. if you ask me to fret an F for example on a given string i would look at you like a puppy who p****d the bed. what i do learn well is patterns, movement and sound. so i can memorise a scale by ignoring the notes and learning the pattern. then i can associate that with a style, so i have a bluesy pattern, or a spanish pattern. i can also learn little tricks with relative ease as a movement. i can learn some things, but they dont relate to the guitars, for example i know that the root, 3rd and 5th are good harmonics, but i dont know how that matches to a guitar. it doesnt matter how many times i read it, or have it explained to me or shown to me, it just never sticks. its not just guitars, but piano too. all the songs i know are just patterns linked together, not chord progressions, key changes and scales. so now i am at a musical wall that seems insurmountable. all i can do is learn tabs, and write and record my own stuff. playing in bands never works as everyone else gets along so much faster than me or talks about things i dont understand. the friend i am playing with at the moment is being patient but its a big issue as i cannot follow a change unless we have agreed before hand as to when, where and how to do it. so its like having to learn a song before its written. we will get past it eventually i hope but it will be very slow. what seems to happening instead though is that i will write the tune myself and deal with all the rhythm section and just present him with something to lead over. which could be ok but it seems much less of a team effort. i'm sure i am not alone with it, but as yet i have not found any way past it. it just makes playing with others a very stressful experience. i have been told that it sounds like a fairly autistic way of thinking, which does make sense but it doesnt really help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@23 Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) All I can suggest is; find a teacher, a good, very good teacher! Different people find different things hard so try not to beat yourself up over it. Most of the greatest rock musicians wouldn't be able to tell you what key they were in! A good teacher will help to break it down in an understandable way. Most people have the capacity to learn difficult stuff, its just breaking down the barrier and finding a way in which it makes sense to you. Edited to say, sorry if that doesn't sound helpful, but there is probably no point trying to explain how it stuck for me as we all learn differently. It sounds like a proper, qualified and experienced teacher could help you far more, in a few hours, than anything else. Edited January 5, 2016 by M@23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 How's your maths? Looks like there is some link with dyscalculia rather than dyslexia with trouble learning music theory. (only from a quick search, no real research on my part). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 There is definitely a link between reading notation (and playing it at the same time) and those who also suffer from 'visual stress' reading normal text. For example, the use of overlays (sometimes green for example) can help to sharpen up and make reading text and symbols easier. If it's an effort to read something then it certainly becomes less fun to try to learn it, that's for sure! I use glasses with a VDU filter (essentially blocks out ultra-violet and parts of the blue colour spectrum I believe) and I find it much easier to read normal text and notation. It is a marked difference. I am not Dyslexic though. Musical Dyslexia does exist, though I suspect it'll be given a different medical name! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Can you remember the phrase 'BEA do good cheap flights'? That's the order of flats for your key signature's BEADGCF. To find out what key you are in, cover the first flat, and the next is the key. Just remember that one flat ( b ) is the key of F. If you can remember it backwards FCGDAEB, that's the order of sharps for your key signatures. To find out the key look at the last sharp, this is the leading note, or one fret below the key note (or tonic). So for eg. One sharp F# is one fret below G. So its G Major. Can you remember Major = - 3; minor = + 3? Then you can find the relative minor key. Each Major key has a minor key which shares the same key signature. So for C [size=4]Major (easy because it has no sharps or flats) count back 3 - CBA - and the minor key = A minor. [/size] [size=4]To[/size][size=4] find the relative Major, count forwards for 3, so from A minor - ABC - and its C Major. [/size] [size=4]There's a bit more to it, but you're almost halfway there. Unless you want to get serous with theory qualifications, in which case you need to know things such as when Beethoven last washed his socks. [/size] Edited January 5, 2016 by MacDaddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 [quote name='M@23' timestamp='1451998596' post='2945306'] All I can suggest is; find a teacher, a good, very good teacher! Different people find different things hard so try not to beat yourself up over it. Most of the greatest rock musicians wouldn't be able to tell you what key they were in! A good teacher will help to break it down in an understandable way. Most people have the capacity to learn difficult stuff, its just breaking down the barrier and finding a way in which it makes sense to you. Edited to say, sorry if that doesn't sound helpful, but there is probably no point trying to explain how it stuck for me as we all learn differently. It sounds like a proper, qualified and experienced teacher could help you far more, in a few hours, than anything else. [/quote] Yes, a good teacher I would recommend also. One who is patient and can work with you with a customised lesson plan rather than regurgitating the same lessons over and over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I'd also recommend a good teacher. A good one will have a variety of ways to show you the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annoying Twit Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 How far do you get if you try a gentle introduction such as: http://www.8notes.com/theory/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I've always had the same problem - music theory, and reading music especially, is completely unlearnable for me. I've had lots of people say the same old stuff - you just need to find the right teacher blah blah blah. I've tried many many ways and many teachers but the outcome is always the same - total & complete inability to understand music (& maths, and languages for that matter). It turns out the reason I can't do any of this stuff is that I am autistic - After a lifetime of bewilderment at why I struggle with many things I was diagnosed as being on the Autistic spectrum two months ago. I'm 51 on Friday - that's a long time to go without knowing why your brain doesn't work like most other peoples do. Now, finding this out isn't going to help me any with music, but it has made me feel a lot better about why, despite having a pretty high IQ, I struggle with many things, music theory included. It's also finally explained why I've always found playing in bands & with other musicians incredibly stressful. I can finally stop beating myself up about that too. The diagnosis for me has been an incredibly positive thing. Having said all that not being able to understand music theory is not an automatic sign of autism; there are plenty of autistic musician out there who have no problem at all with musical theory, I'm just not one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I think you're just trying to run before you can walk. Spend some time learning the names of the notes and the frets. Just on the first 7 frets to start with. Only once you have that off; move onto intervals. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzneck Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Welcome to the club. Without wanting to brag, I have a degree in chemistry from Brunel and worked in technical and factory management for 46 years. My maths is bloody good. I speak three languages well enough to live in the appropriate countries. Like you, I'm totally dyslexic when it comes to music theory, reading and writing. Have tried numerous times using damn good, well respected teachers. Now I don't bother or care anymore - I just picks up my guitar or bass, listen and plays the bloody thing. Don't worry about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Dyslexia and the spin offs can be totally disabling and not understood by those who don't have it. I was in the car with my 34 year old daughter over Christmas and when I said "Turn left here" she had to hold her left hand up and use it to help her know which way to turn. Likewise for a right turn. Edited January 5, 2016 by yorks5stringer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah thomas Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 [quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1452002570' post='2945368'] Dyslexia and the spin offs can be totally disabling and not understood by those who don't have it. I was in the car with my 34 year old daughter over Christmas and when I said "Turn left here" she had to hold her left hand up and use it to help her know which way to turn. Likewise for a right turn. [/quote] For directions in the car, I can't think quickly enough which is my left hand (have to check for wedding ring) so I just say 'your side' or 'my side'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Depends if you think you need it or not. I've managed perfectly well with patterns, movement and sound. I find music theory a very boring subject which is why I haven't bothered. It makes me lose the will to live. I find it is the enemy of spontaneity. I'm likely to be shot down in flames for saying this, so don't get me wrong - some people's minds work in certain ways and people tend to find the best way of doing things [i]for them[/i]. I have no issue with people who are able to learn music theory, advanced maths, German, Finnish, physics, programming, [i]et al[/i]. It's just not for me. On the same subject, I don't understand people who feel that if they don't make 'progress' with an instrument that they have failed in some way. They feel as if they've 'hit a wall' or are 'in a rut' with their playing. Again, I don't have an issue with people who want to improve themselves, I just don't feel the need to quantify how 'good' or otherwise I am at playing bass. I don't practise scales or feel I have to spend a certain amount of time every day on an instrument. It's not a competition - it's art. If I can do what I feel needs to be done in an interesting and creative way and it sounds good, then I'm happy. Is that so very [i]wrong[/i], people?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMcKay Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I'd second the green overlay. My daughter uses one for general reading and you can immediately tell the difference. I'd also recommend approaching the subject a little differently, perhaps trying creative and non-standard methods to achieve the same result. Think reading a comic book versus reading a standard text book. it's not important what one you opt for - as long as you understand the story. Not sure how helpful the analogy is, but I do know that modern teaching methods in schools place the dyslexic pupil at the centre and change and modify the learning to suit them, as opposed to forcing the dyslexic pupil to learn in a manner which doesn't accommodate the condition. And if you do feel it getting you down, simply google famous dyslexics. I'm sure it will open your eyes! Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Unfortunately she is unmarried..! But take your point, she makes the 'L' shape with her thumb and first finger as an aid memoir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 [quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1452005767' post='2945397'] ...she makes the 'L' shape with her thumb and first finger as an aid memoir. [/quote] Are you sure she's not just calling you a loser? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I learned a load of theory when I was younger but I can't really remember much of it now. Having said that, if someone says "F" I know where it is on the fretboard, which is very useful. Maybe stick some dots on the fretboard? I realise it'd feel a bit silly given you're so technically proficient to go back to "beginner dots", but you really should be able to locate a note on the board after someone calls it out. Once you've figured that out, you should start to notice which notes from your "shapes" are the root notes, and then you'll be able to play in any key You've learned all the hard stuff, it's just anchoring that to the right position you need to do now I agree a teacher would be the best bet but it's not always possible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Dean Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I didn't discover I was dyslexic until I was 37 , I certainly can't track notes ... I have met several top session guys eg Tony Levin who told me that they can read music but can't remember the last time they were asked to . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 A "gentle introduction"? I got to all the various meters and my brain said "that's enough" and shut down like a slug in a salt cellar. Up until then it was fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorks5stringer Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1452005925' post='2945403'] Are you sure she's not just calling you a loser? [/quote] No, but I do worry when she makes the 'W' symbol.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburstjazz1967 Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1452004722' post='2945387'] Depends if you think you need it or not. I've managed perfectly well with patterns, movement and sound. I find music theory a very boring subject which is why I haven't bothered. It makes me lose the will to live. I find it is the enemy of spontaneity. I'm likely to be shot down in flames for saying this, so don't get me wrong - some people's minds work in certain ways and people tend to find the best way of doing things [i]for them[/i]. I have no issue with people who are able to learn music theory, advanced maths, German, Finnish, physics, programming, [i]et al[/i]. It's just not for me. On the same subject, I don't understand people who feel that if they don't make 'progress' with an instrument that they have failed in some way. They feel as if they've 'hit a wall' or are 'in a rut' with their playing. Again, I don't have an issue with people who want to improve themselves, I just don't feel the need to quantify how 'good' or otherwise I am at playing bass. I don't practise scales or feel I have to spend a certain amount of time every day on an instrument. It's not a competition - it's art. If I can do what I feel needs to be done in an interesting and creative way and it sounds good, then I'm happy. Is that so very [i]wrong[/i], people?? [/quote] The op has already stated that it is causing a problem and making life more difficult relying on other people's patience with him. I've been in bands with people who say they don't want to learn any theory as its boring, like wise I find it boring spending ages on one song because they don't know what a flat 7 is for example and those "patterns" don't work all of a sudden! I'd have a lot more time for someone that can't learn theory than someone that doesn't want to, hell mine isn't great! Those who only play at home or a solo act or even in a band of like minded folk that's great to carry on regardless, 20 plus new songs for a gig this weekend with other musicians that know their stuff, forget it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twincam Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 [quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1451999479' post='2945319'] How's your maths? Looks like there is some link with dyscalculia rather than dyslexia with trouble learning music theory. (only from a quick search, no real research on my part). [/quote] I have this issue. I can learn all sorts and am very good at science until maths come in. Same with music theory makes zero sense non! Like my brain won't process it, I get the basics but it just doesn't add up. I know this over simplifies it but music, all music is just notes put in a pretty pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMcKay Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Please don't be put off that the following has been written for kids. It contains some useful strategies and pointers: http://www.rhinegold.co.uk/downloads/magazines/music_teacher/music_teacher_guide_music_and_dyslexia.pdf I was immediately drawn towards the points on patterns and colours. If it proves helpful - good. If not - it is still an interesting read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 [quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1452010113' post='2945485'] I've been in bands with people who say they don't want to learn any theory as its boring, like wise I find it boring spending ages on one song because they don't know what a flat 7 is for example and those "patterns" don't work all of a sudden![/quote] I find it boring spending ages on one song, too. [quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1452010113' post='2945485'] Those who only play at home or a solo act or even in a band of like minded folk that's great to carry on regardless, 20 plus new songs for a gig this weekend with other musicians that know their stuff, forget it. [/quote] Very rarely need to do a gig with musicians I've never met before. Granted, I might find it a bit tight learning 20 plus songs for a gig this weekend, but I wouldn't accept a gig on so little notice. Even if I were a reader I'd prefer some kind of rehearsal beforehand, anyway. You're probably right though, I bet people get really hacked off with Pino and his carrying on regardless. Tsk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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