musical dyslexia

[DavidMcKay]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1452015829' post='2945574']
I find it boring spending ages on one song, too.



Very rarely need to do a gig with musicians I've never met before. Granted, I might find it a bit tight learning 20 plus songs for a gig this weekend, but I wouldn't accept a gig on so little notice. Even if I were a reader I'd prefer some kind of rehearsal beforehand, anyway.

You're probably right though, I bet people get really hacked off with Pino and his carrying on regardless. Tsk!
[/quote]

Yeah - that Palladino is giving us all a bad name!!!

Knock it on the head Pino!

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1452004722' post='2945387']I find music theory a very boring subject which is why I haven't bothered. It makes me lose the will to live. I find it is the enemy of spontaneity.
[/quote]

I understand your perspective, but having been in bands with people who have no music theory knowledge, it makes it very difficult for them to articulate their ideas to the rest of the band. It can end up getting very frustrating trying to figure out exactly what they're looking for.

S.P.

[RhysP]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1452007711' post='2945431']
A "gentle introduction"? I got to all the various meters and my brain said "that's enough" and shut down like a slug in a salt cellar.
[/quote]

That's put me right off salt, that has.

[discreet]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1452016625' post='2945585']
That's put me right off salt, that has.
[/quote]

And cellars.

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' timestamp='1452016599' post='2945584']
...having been in bands with people who have no music theory knowledge, it makes it very difficult for them to articulate their ideas to the rest of the band. It can end up getting very frustrating trying to figure out exactly what they're looking for.
[/quote]

I have no such problem. We'll have to agree to disagree here, as is usual in this situation. I just resent the implication that because I'm 'not hot on musical theory', I'm automatically excluded by the music police from any kind of access to 'proper' music or 'real' bands. Which of course is nonsense. I have an idea that some of the most successful bands in the history of popular music are made up of musicians with no knowledge of music theory. Thhhp!!

Edited January 5, 2016 by discreet

[Naetharu]

First, to the OP:

Are you having trouble learning theory in general or is it sight-reading in particular. I ask as it is perfectly possible to learn theory to a very high degree without learning to read/write music. It's certainly a benefit to be able to read/write but it is not needed in order to have a robust understanding of theory and how it applies to bass. If it is the reading side of things that is holding you back I'd recommend simply putting that to one side for the time being and focusing down on learning the applied theory for bass.

I'd also recommend a teacher for this. When I started playing back last April I found myself a fellow who played upright bass in a Jazz band and he was fantastic for getting my basic theory down. Once I had the basics I found that a lot of the other stuff became much easier to follow.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1452004722' post='2945387']
Depends if you think you need it or not. I've managed perfectly well with patterns, movement and sound. I find music theory...the enemy of spontaneity. If I can do what I feel needs to be done in an interesting and creative way and it sounds good, then I'm happy. Is that so very [i]wrong[/i], people?? [/quote]

The trouble with this view is that you are actually using Music Theory - you just learnt it the hard way. Like it or not, you are part of the western musical tradition, and as such in order to learn to play your instrument you have had to build up a body of knowledge so that you are familiar with things such as the major scale(s), the minor scales, chord patters, different tensions etc.There is no way around it - if you play you are using theory.

The difference is how well you [b]understand [/b]what you are doing; not whether you are using theory or not. And in my experience a good understanding of what you are doing is never a block to being spontaneous or creative. People that don't study theory seem to think that it is some kind of set of rigid proscriptions about what you should and should not do: THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF MUSIC!

It's not - it is a body of knowledge that [b]describes (not proscribes) [/b]the enormous effort that people have put into music for the past two-thousand odd years (well, sort of - at least the past six hundred or so with more tenuous roots going back further). Just as with any other human endeavor, it is wise to learn from those that have come before you as much as you can. Doing so avoids you spending enormous time and effort simply re-inventing what has already been done.

Oddly, there is a real fear amid the un-initiated that they will somehow loose their creative capacity if they 'join the system'. It's not unique to music: I used to teach at university and found the same attitude from the first-year students who were worried that by reading too deeply into historical philosophers they would somehow become unable to produce interesting work. The truth is always the opposite.

Nobody is or should force anyone to study theory if they don't want to, but the idea that doing so might be detrimental to your playing is a myth that needs debunking. Some people with strong theory may be poor at being creative but they would have been so regardless - its not their knowledge of theory that is causing them trouble.

[RhysP]

[quote name='Naetharu' timestamp='1452019810' post='2945631']
Like it or not, you are part of the western musical tradition, and as such in order to learn to play your instrument you have had to build up a body of knowledge so that you are familiar with things such as the major scale(s), the minor scales, chord patters, different tensions etc.There is no way around it - if you play you are using theory.
[/quote]

Sorry but this is cobblers - I've been playing for 36 years & I still could not play you a single scale, and I have no idea what a chord pattern or a tension is. This hasn't stopped me being in lots of bands & even doing paid session work because some people just like the way I play.

[christofloffer]

good to know i am not alone.

i am not fussed about sight reading or writing in the classical sense. or even anything like that to be honest, the couple of classical bits i know on the guitar are not correct, but my own version of them. i have no need or want of sheet music. the problem lies in more practical means.
for example, i will come up with an interesting bass line, record it and then see if i can match it up with some chords. sometimes this works, but more often i get totally stumped and end up having to change it until i can match it up. or i will be writing with my friend and have to ask him what chords i am playing or what chords will match up. i know most of the open chords but after the 5th fret i am just guessing.
on the bass in particular, he will start playing something and i hit random notes until i find the right area to work in. which would be cured if i could remember where things were. worse still is if it start on the bass, and he joins in with me as once he is playing too i dont know where to go. i either have to stop or just let him take over and try to catch up.

i will take a look at the markers. i had them once before and just let them fall off in the end as it never matched up. but now that i am trying to get the bass down properly it might make more sense. i think i could make my patterns and movements work fine if i can just get a little further. if someone could say to me "blues - F#" or even just tell what they are changing to and i could just find that position and use my bluesy patterns then that would be fine. so markers may be the best way forward. even if it doesnt stick, maybe i could get the pyrography pen out and burn the positions into the neck. then i can just lean on an aid rather than my memory.
i dont think strict theory is vital, but i think knowing where i am is pretty important if i want to play along and write with people. otherwise a jam is never a jam as i would have to learn the songs before turning up, then it becomes a rehearsal.

[sunburstjazz1967]

Ah the old Pino card! I bet he can read a basic chart and know what note choices he can use over most chords, not being a sight reader doesn't mean they have no idea of any theory at all.

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1452021595' post='2945661']


Sorry but this is cobblers - I've been playing for 36 years & I still could not play you a single scale, and I have no idea what a chord pattern or a tension is. This hasn't stopped me being in lots of bands & even doing paid session work because some people just like the way I play.
[/quote]

It isn't cobblers at all you just know that it's not cobblers, you haven't invented a new unique musical system, you just don't know why some things sound good and other things don't.


Using ears is great,a must, but like it or not anyone who can't understand keys is ultimately excluded from some work, as long as you don't want that work thats fine, playing in a band that does the songs in one key and never swaps members around last minute and has regular practices I guess it doesn't really matter (I still think it would be quicker if all members know what a key is) but depping last minute gigs with a set list the day before with keys added on in scribble often different to the record would be very hard for MOST players without ANY theory to pull off well enough imo.

[JTUK]

Its a language... you need to be on the same page as the other guys.

It might be great that you can play from the unconscious but you have to have a VERY educated ear for that, IMO/IME

It's just so much quicker when you can understand what someone is talking about and does indeed help you meet
the band on the night and do a good job and justify your money.

If you can do all that from perfect pitch, then great, but that is few and far between... so IMO, you need to move
away from 'clueless' as much as you can.

If however, you aren't in sitiuations where you get exposed then carry on as you like.

Most drummers will be able to write out a part...I can't think of many people I know/play with who don't have some sort of musical
education.
,
If you can cope in those situations where the band leaders is throwing keys and charts all over the place it is a gig you have the choice to take..
if can't..you have no choice.

'3 down' from the band leader makes your 12 bar swinger interesting especially if by hand signals

[RhysP]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1452025221' post='2945706']
It isn't cobblers at all you just know that it's not cobblers, you haven't invented a new unique musical system, you just don't know why some things sound good and other things don't.
[/quote]
What are you on about? Who said anything about inventing a new musical system?
The post I replied to said you couldn't play without a knowledge of certain things, which I disagree with.
If for some reason I unknowingly use one of those things I still don't have any knowledge of it, do I?

[Twigman]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1452026012' post='2945717']


Most drummers will be able to write out a part...I can't think of many people I know/play with who don't have some sort of musical
education.

[/quote]

You've got to be kidding me....I don't think my drummer can even write, let alone write out a part - I jest....he readily admits he hasn't a clue what he's doing, he doesn't count (!!) ...he'll look at us blankly when we suggest he does something on the 4 , for example....yet he's been drumming 40odd years and the band (which he claims is his, as he's the only member who's been in it for its entire existence) has 8 albums.

I don't think any of us can read music.

We can tell the difference between a straight major and a minor...but start talking modes and we're all staring blankly like a drummer.

I do have to think if it's suggested I play a flat7 ...but then again nobody ever suggests that as nobody uses that terminology.

We just do what sounds 'right'.


My Dad is a classically trained pianist and organist and choir master with a very good ear.
He complains that our music never seems to 'stay in key' for long and has rather more atonal 'harmonies' than he thinks is proper.....


It doesn't seem to have done us any harm.

[JTUK]

Nope, not kidding...
the vast majority (drummers) are muscially conversant and know how to compile muscial tracks as per a brief..
Most deps show up with parts written out.

[RhysP]

The only drummer I know who can write out a part in drum notation is also the only drummer I know that isn't a professional musician.
Don't get me wrong, an excellent drummer, but not one of the ones that are in multiple bands, touring & playing every night of the week.

Also don't get me wrong - I'm not one of those "music theory destroys creativity" people, I think that's garbage.

When I was younger and really into my playing I'd have loved to have had some decent theoretical grounding.
These days music & playing is so far down my list of priorities that I simply don't care anymore.

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1452026401' post='2945722']

What are you on about? Who said anything about inventing a new musical system?
The post I replied to said you couldn't play without a knowledge of certain things, which I disagree with.
If for some reason I unknowingly use one of those things I still don't have any knowledge of it, do I?
[/quote]


You are using theory rather than something unknown is what I'm saying, I could unpick your part and explain it to a band that has never heard you play in a common language, you couldn't.

You know what to do but not how to convey it to others, doesn't matter if you don't need to.

[sunburstjazz1967]

Jam night, "12 bar in G" , who honestly cant follow that as a minimum?

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1452021595' post='2945661']


Sorry but this is cobblers - I've been playing for 36 years & I still could not play you a single scale,
[/quote]

Point is you can and you are, unless you sound rubbish? You just don't know which scale or parts of it do you.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1452029138' post='2945758']
Nope, not kidding...
the vast majority (drummers) are muscially conversant and know how to compile muscial tracks as per a brief..
Most deps show up with parts written out.
[/quote]

I wonder if this is a fact based on evidence, or an opinion based on your personal experiences?

[RhysP]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1452084762' post='2946191']
I wonder if this is a fact based on evidence, or an opinion based on your personal experiences?
[/quote]

This is Basschat - opinion IS fact on here!

[Naetharu]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1452021595' post='2945661']
Sorry but this is cobblers - I've been playing for 36 years & I still could not play you a single scale, and I have no idea what a chord pattern or a tension is. This hasn't stopped me being in lots of bands & even doing paid session work because some people just like the way I play.
[/quote]

I'm not sure you quite understand. The point I was making is as follows:

Everyone that plays any form of modern music (jazz/blues/soul/funk/rock/pop...etc.) is working in the Western Musical Tradition: the sounds and rhythms that these styles use are not random. They have arise over hundreds of years and have come for form a body of music that has unique and distinctive characteristics.

I appreciate you never learnt any [b]formal [/b]theory. You never sat down and learnt the names of scales, chords etc. But you have learnt a great deal of theory [b]implicitly [/b]- through listening to music and through playing with others. You have learnt (by ear) to recognize which notes sound good and which sound less good together. You have also learnt (again, by ear) to recognize tensions and release in music. If you are even a beginner level bass player you'll recognize that the 5th chord of a major scale wants to resolve to the root. You may not understand that is what you are hearing, but you will (by ear) be able to hear the tension.

These sounds are not just good and bad simpliciter: the 'right' and 'wrong' nature of certain sounds is something we learn to hear because we grow up listening to a certain musical tradition. If you try listening to something radically different (try Turkish folk music for example, which uses lots of micro-tones) you'll see this. The notes you pick work [b]in the context of western music theory [/b]and it is only because you are familiar with that (albeit implicitly via years of listening) that you are able to hear certain notes as sounding good and others as bad.

The difference between someone who 'learns by ear' and someone who is formally trained is not that one knows theory and the other does not. Rather, it is that the latter knows the theory explicitly and is able to articulate that knowledge in a common language that is specifically designed for the job (everyday language, while wonderful for general discourse, is rather poor and precisely describing pitch, timing and so forth). This is of major benefit in certain situations - such as when trying to communicate ideas to others or writing music down in order to preserve it in a non-audio format.

So yes, you can learn to play without [b]formally studying theory [/b]however that does not mean that you are not using theory. It's just that you're using theory that you have picked up from informal listening - reproducing note patterns that sound good (i.e using scales and chords - that's all they are after all) and adapting common forms of rhythm.

Edited January 8, 2016 by Naetharu

[JTUK]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1452084762' post='2946191']
I wonder if this is a fact based on evidence, or an opinion based on your personal experiences?
[/quote]

Yes..sorry, personal experience....as in the guys that we'd call and use, I'd say over 90% and then the 10 % would be pretty musically educated in a non formal sense.

my quote" [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Most drummers will be able to write out a part...I can't think of many people I know/play with who don't have some sort of musical [/font][/color]
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]education."[/font][/color]

If you took a section that played my local music pub... all bets are off, but I don't recall any absolute shockers...
I did do a dep gig recently and the guy had very dodgy counting..which wasn't helpful and he wasn't very good but
not my call, ... Just wasn't in a hurry to take any more dates

Edited January 8, 2016 by JTUK

[TrevorR]

[quote name='christofloffer' timestamp='1451996136' post='2945277']
...i have a grasp of the fundamentals and i can play well enough for my needs... ...can play scales fine (not my favourite thing on guitar but i can do it) but i have no idea as to what key i am in until it sounds like a match. to find my place when playing along with someone i have to work my way up the neck until i find the right spot. if you ask me to fret an F for example on a given string i would look at you like a puppy who p****d the bed. what i do learn well is patterns, movement and sound. so i can memorise a scale by ignoring the notes and learning the pattern. then i can associate that with a style, so i have a bluesy pattern, or a spanish pattern. i can also learn little tricks with relative ease as a movement. i can learn some things, but they dont relate to the guitars, for example i know that the root, 3rd and 5th are good harmonics, but i dont know how that matches to a guitar... i

...so now i am at a musical wall that seems insurmountable. all i can do is learn tabs, and write and record my own stuff. playing in bands never works as everyone else gets along so much faster than me or talks about things i dont understand. the friend i am playing with at the moment is being patient but its a big issue as i cannot follow a change unless we have agreed before hand as to when, where and how to do it...

i have been told that it sounds like a fairly autistic way of thinking, which does make sense but it doesnt really help.
[/quote]

Been thinking about the things you've said - and highlighted a few above. A few thoughts occur. First is, don't make a big thing about not being 100% on top of music theory - few of us are. Music theory is kinda like the rules of grammar for the language of music. I'm British, therefore like many, my theoretical knowledge of some of the deeper theory of grammar is a mystery to me. What's the pluperfect tense? Or a gerund? Or whatever. However, I can still communicate fluently and have learned enough of the grammar which suits my purposes. Some of it by learning and applying principles, some of it by working on memorising stuff (like spellings) and some is just subconscious.

Look at music theory in that manner, work out what you want to use it for and them break up the little bits that help you do that into bite sized chunks and try to find a learning method that works for you.

So what matters (to you)? Dots and sight reading? Forget it. Certainly at this stage. Not what's going to get you going in playing with others, jamming around a tune etc.

The first basic would be having a better knowledge of the notes on the neck - for the first 7 frets - as others have said. Those will be the basic building blocks for a lot of things. Try different ways to get them to sink in... just going up each string fret by fret until it sticks... E, F, F#, G, Ab, A, Bb, B, next string A, Bb, C, C#, D, Eb, E, next string D, Eb, E, F, F#, G, Ab, A, next string G, Ab, A, Bb, B, C, C#, D... over and over and over. Try flash card games... Write each note on a card and shuffle them. Flip a card and find the note and play it. Make it a game, see how long it takes to go through the pack. Flip a card and find all of that note on the first 7 frets... it all helps. Knowing (or even knowing most of) those notes will be an immeasurable step up.

Find simple songs and download chord sheets - play the root notes along to the track - to give you more confidence...

If someone says, "Right lets start a jam. Four chords. G, C, D and A minor." Then at least you can play those notes while you try to work out some more interesting runs and riffs to play between them. You're building on a building block.

Next you could look at scales and invervals... You say you can play scales by shapes. Briliant! That's what most of us do most of the time (it's music theory in disguise). The two to focus on first are the major and minor scale shapes. By ear you'll already know the note that it sounds right to start and finish the scale on - that's the "root" note. If you are playing the major scale and the start/root note on your bass happens to be G - you are playing the G major scale (E string 3rd fret). Simple as that. Move it up a fret to the Ab note (E string 4th note) and you're playing the Ab major scale. Up another fret... A major. Start on C note and that's the C major...

Then you cal look at the shapes in the scale that are the intervals. Play the 8 notes in the scale and give each a number starting with 1 up to 8 and you've just named the intervals! Or look at the shapes on the fret board... 3rd - up a string down a fret, 4th up a string, 5th up a string up two frets... etc Then look at how you can internalise those? Repetition and flash card games might be a good way.

If you had a go at learining those bits little by little, one at a time you'd probably have as much music theory as a large majority or players, feel more confident and equipped to play with others and to follow songs and song sheets.

You will have a really strong foundation and you will be playing. Any theory you happen to pick up over and on top of that is an absolute bonus! Hope those ideas help.

[Twigman]

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1452277538' post='2948498']


If you had a go at learining those bits little by little, one at a time you'd probably have as much music theory as a large majority or players, feel more confident and equipped to play with others and to follow songs and song sheets.
[/quote]
I've got all of those things, have done for years....but put a chord sheet in front of me and I'm screwed.....tell me we're going to jam in Eb minor or whatever and I can do it.....it's the knowing insinctively which notes make up the chord from just the chord name that I struggle with - yes I know the notes in the std major and minor triads but tell me to play a diminished chord or an augmented chord or a subtonic or supertonic or a thirteenth flat ninth or a lydian and I haven't a scooby doo.

[TrevorR]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1452278718' post='2948516']

I've got all of those things, have done for years....but put a chord sheet in front of me and I'm screwed.....tell me we're going to jam in Eb minor or whatever and I can do it.....it's the knowing insinctively which notes make up the chord from just the chord name that I struggle with - yes I know the notes in the std major and minor triads but tell me to play a diminished chord or an augmented chord or a subtonic or supertonic or a thirteenth flat ninth or a lydian and I haven't a scooby doo.
[/quote]

Do you know the good thing? You don't have to! Most of the time if you take the basics of the root chord (without flattened fifths, sevenths etc) your ears and experience will let you know which notes work - esp in most rock/pop music. Get into the more esoteric jazz world's and it gets more complicated.

There are a few rules to learn with Aug and dim chords where with the former the 5th goes up a semitone and the latter it goes down a semitone and the sevenths are all a bit weird.

With most of the complex extended chords (in very bastardised lay mans terms) it is a normal major or minor chord with additional jazzy notes added in on top of the normal chord. With apologies to music theorists who will cringe at this... If you come across a, say, Ab minor with an added 9th approach it largely as a bog standard A minor chord and adjust your line/riff to correct any clashes that occur. That will get you more than enough into the ball park to use your ear to work out the nuances.

It is a crude approximation but if you simplify the chords down then it will get you through 95% of the time. Try it!

Edited January 8, 2016 by TrevorR

[RhysP]

[quote name='Naetharu' timestamp='1452274623' post='2948439']
I'm not sure you quite understand.....
[/quote]

Would you like to try & be a little more patronising?
I know exactly what you mean.