musical dyslexia

[TrevorR]

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1452278718' post='2948516']
I've got all of those things, have done for years....but put a chord sheet in front of me and I'm screwed..
[/quote]

Another thought... it might be worth practising playing along to (some relatively simple) chord sheets to put the above principles into practice... choose straightforward less complicated music - something like the Eagles springs to mind where there are a few min7 thrown in or a "101 rock songs chord book" where again there will only be a smattering or fancy chords. then try jamming along to the track using the chord sheet as a guide. You can then try boiling down more complicated chords into their less complex variations and try which passing notes and riff notes within the scale shape work and which don't. Then you'll start to get a feel for what will and won't work over a min7, 13th or dominant7 chord without having to sweat too much about the harmonic theory behind it.

Of course, if you then want to delve into that theory a bit at some point then there's nothing stopping you in due course... But even if you don't you'll have learned how to busk a chord sheet.

Another hint is first time through a chord sheet of an unfamiliar song keep it dead simple. There's no shame in just playing root notes while you get a feel of where the changes come in the line, then building on that by adding in simple intervals like 3rds, 4ths and 5th and trying out little runs and patterns and then adding in complexity as you start to feel more confident with the song.

[JTUK]

Observation of a few gigs I've seen recently..

Bass players who can busk and bass players who can't.
The vast majority weren't able to in the cross section
I'm referring to.
Many will learn the song exactly and do a decent job..
but fall apart when they have to create lines or fills on the fly.

So these guys can only take gigs that they know...and have rehearsed up
but there is no plan B which makes the whole thing fraught.

Edited January 9, 2016 by JTUK

[markmcclelland]

Maybe I'm simplifying it but it could be just possible you're trying to dive in too deep at once and maybe connect to everything at once. But yes, I've seen a few people mention you get a good teacher and that would probably be the best way to start, especially seeing how your frustration seems to be deep rooted and long standing. But if what you're playing works, keep going at that too. Don't let lack of theory stop you but yes, if you can get some theory into there, it would also be good. But hey, hundreds and more of amazing songs and basslines were written and played without the guys knowing anything about the underlying theories of what they were doing.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1452021595' post='2945661']
Sorry but this is cobblers - I've been playing for 36 years & I still could not play you a single scale, and I have no idea what a chord pattern or a tension is. This hasn't stopped me being in lots of bands & even doing paid session work because some people just like the way I play.
[/quote]

If you can move your finger up and down a string while listening to a song and hear which note sound like the "root" of the song then you are capable of identifying a "key". If you can then hear which other notes sound good and bad against the song then you are playing a "scale" and you can hear "tension". If you hear how the latter subtly changes during the course of a song then you have identified a "chord pattern". If you can hear that a certain sets of notes sound good against a happy/light sounding song and another set sound good against a sad/powerful sounding one then you have identified "major" and "minor" scales. If you hear that a certain part of a song sound likes its building up to something like a different song section or the end of the song then you have identified a "cadence". I'm guessing that with your track record of all those band and sessions that you can do all these things and more, possibly even better in some cases than those of use who know formal theory.

Music theory came about through people hearing these things and assigning names to them. You've just found your own way of categorizing the same things. For you learning the basics of orthodox theory probably just a case of learning the common names for the stuff you can already identify by ear and play.

Edited January 9, 2016 by bassman7755

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='christofloffer' timestamp='1451996136' post='2945277']
if you ask me to fret an F for example on a given string i would look at you like a puppy who p****d the bed.
[/quote]

Well no theory is really necessary here, learning the note positions on the fingerboard is just plain old hard graft, yes there are certain short cuts that people with a theory knowledge can use but I maintain that its still best to just learn all the note positions "cold".

Be warned that its a big undertaking and will probably take 6 months to a year of daily practice to lean them fluently.

While some people can pick it up by osmosis as they go, most people IME need a structured system so I'll describe the one I developed for myself (having had several abortive attempts using various other methods such as flash cards):

===========

Youve got 7 basic notes to learn A B C D E F G but [b]the order to practice the notes in is F C G D E A B[/b], this order has a special significance in theory which I'm not going to burden you with here but its also a good order to use because it lessens the temptation to cheat by using the previous note as a reference.

[b]Each practice session pick the next note from the sequence (after B go back to F obviously) and work out where that note is on all(*) strings up to and including the 12th fret[/b]. You can do this by counting up the notes from the open string or just looking it up on a fretboard chard online or on a printout but [i]do not use notes you already know on [b]other[/b] strings as a reference[/i]. [b]Just do one note per session to start[/b] with and (*) if even one note is to hard to do on all strings in say 2 or 3 minutes then reduce the number of strings to start with, say do just the bottom two strings, bottom being thickest i.e. the E and A on a 4 string.

Just keep on going until you can do one note per practice session on all strings without too much effort and without having to count up to them or look them up. (as say "just" but getting to this point may take weeks or even months).

Once you can do one note fluently per session effortlessly then do 2 notes in the sequence per session etc. At this you've really broken the back of basic note location should be able quickly ramp up to doing 2 notes per session then 3 etc.

Once you can do all 7 notes on all strings fluently in one session then add in the sharps and flats to the sequence. Although some of the sharps and flats all have dual names (e.g. F# is also Gb) for now stick with the ones used to name chords so the full sequence is [b] F C G D E A B F# C# Ab Eb Bb. [/b]At this point it shouldnt be too hard to add in all the sharps/flats because there all just one fret away from a note you already know.

========

Well thats what worked for me when all else failed. I feel I should credit Joe Hubbard for putting me onto the one-note-at-a-time-everywhere as a learning technique in one of his videos and I've just refined it to make it more progressive.

Edited January 9, 2016 by bassman7755

[TimR]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1452021595' post='2945661']


Sorry but this is cobblers - I've been playing for 36 years & I still could not play you a single scale, and I have no idea what a chord pattern or a tension is. This hasn't stopped me being in lots of bands & even doing paid session work because some people just like the way I play.
[/quote]

This is interesting.

You must at least know the names of the notes of a scale and where they are on the fretboard.

Do you just have perfect pitch and play completely by ear?

You wouldn't last one minute in any of the bands I've played in. How can you dep if the band leader says 'blues in E'?

Edited January 9, 2016 by TimR

[RhysP]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1452366266' post='2949345']
This is interesting.

You must at least know the names of the notes of a scale and where they are on the fretboard.

Do you just have perfect pitch and play completely by ear?

You wouldn't last one minute in any of the bands I've played in. How can you dep if the band leader says 'blues in E'?
[/quote]

No, I don't know the names of the notes of a scale and where they are on the fretboard.

My ears are pretty good.

I probably wouldn't like any of the bands you've played in, and I wouldn't play a blues of any sort because I f***ing hate blues.

I didn't dep, I was never interested in doing that sort of thing, largely because the sort of bands that usually require deps play the sort of music I don't like.

Edited January 9, 2016 by RhysP

[sunburstjazz1967]

Do you not know what any of the notes on the finger board are?

Edited January 9, 2016 by sunburstjazz1967

[RhysP]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1452371842' post='2949406']
Do you not know what any of the notes on the finger board are?
[/quote]

Not very well, no.
But, despite all this lack of knowledge I spent 36 years playing bass in various bands, mainly original material but also a few covers too, I've played at jam nights where most of the music has been blues (I can play it, despite not liking it, it's very easy) & I've done some well paid session work in Cardiff. I still get people contacting me to ask if I'll play with them.
Most of the music I grew up listening to & learning to play to was fairly complex (progressive rock, jazz fusion) but I was able to listen to the stuff once or twice & then play it.
I'm sure there are plenty of situations where I wouldn't have been able to play because of my inability to understand theory, but luckily these appear to have been things I had no interest in anyway.
I don't really play bass these days because I got bored with it. I play more guitar these days as I find it more satisfying.
And I don't know what I'm doing on guitar either.

Edited January 9, 2016 by RhysP

[TrevorR]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1452370612' post='2949390']


No, I don't know the names of the notes of a scale and where they are on the fretboard.

My ears are pretty good.

I probably wouldn't like any of the bands you've played in, and I wouldn't play a blues of any sort because I f***ing hate blues.

I didn't dep, I was never interested in doing that sort of thing, largely because the sort of bands that usually require deps play the sort of music I don't like.
[/quote]

This is an interesting question. Don't dismiss the "Blues in E" question either as the phrase is just a shorthand for "a playing situation where someone wishes you to play in a particular key or play a particular note...". Another perhaps more explicit example would perhaps be where you and others are working on a new song (non specific genre of your own choosing) and, say, the guitarist says... " Here's an arrangement idea I'd like to try on the last two bars of the prechorus - Eb to C# minor I thought it would be cool for the bass to do a couple of semi-chromatic runs - F# F Eb then Bb C C#..." Or "How's about on the last two choruses we take it up a couple of semitones, so instead of Ab Eb C#m F we'd do C F Ebm G? Give the ending a bit of a push..."

I would have thought that with no way to mentally ground the changes prior to playing them would be tricky and leave you swooping around the frets for a bit to work out where the bassline has moved to.

I know I've been in situations where the song I had learned was pushed up or down a few semitones by the singer in a way that blew any fret patterns and muscle memory out of the water. Without the ability to cross out the chords on the chord sheet and write the new ones in and then apply the changes quickly to the fretboard I know I would have been royally stuffed.

Edited January 9, 2016 by TrevorR

[TrevorR]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1452375066' post='2949450']


Not very well, no.

...Most of the music I grew up listening to & learning to play to was fairly complex (progressive rock, jazz fusion) but I was able to listen to the stuff once or twice & then play it...

... I play more guitar these days as I find it more satisfying.
And I don't know what I'm doing on guitar either. ...
[/quote]

Wow, you must be blessed with a particularly good ear and note memory. I know a lot of decent players would really struggle in that sort of situation.

[RhysP]

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1452375286' post='2949454']
Wow, you must be blessed with a particularly good ear and note memory. I know a lot of decent players would really struggle in that sort of situation.
[/quote]

Well, as I said earlier in this thread, in November at the age of 50 I was formally diagnosed as being on the Autistic spectrum, so maybe that has something to do with it.
I don't understand it either.

The downside to this is that over the years my sensitivity to aural stimuli (my hearing has been recently classed as hypersensitive) has become so extreme that I am unable to even listen to complex music of any kind anymore, it completely overloads me. Quiet acoustic music is pretty much all I can cope with. Luckily I've always loved folk music too.

Edited January 9, 2016 by RhysP

[JTUK]

Good talent to have..and maybe this has saved you having to learn alternatives ways...but I can see this adding time to the project
myself, but if yoiu have time, then that is less a problem.

I value being able to play a track to an audience and it sound seemless having never heard it before as very valuable too tho.

[TimR]

Ah ok. Autism explains it perfectly. You'll only need to hear it once, or possibly only the first part and you'll know where it's going.

My son is dyslexic. Some things (academic) he just will never get. Some things (physical, dramatic arts) he just gets straight away. Quicker than anyone else ever could.

Just wired differently.

But that's all the more reason not to dismiss theory for other people.

[RhysP]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1452376469' post='2949472']
Ah ok. Autism explains it perfectly. You'll only need to hear it once, or possibly only the first part and you'll know where it's going.

My son is dyslexic. Some things (academic) he just will never get. Some things (physical, dramatic arts) he just gets straight away. Quicker than anyone else ever could.

Just wired differently.

But that's all the more reason not to dismiss theory for other people.
[/quote]

I have never dismissed theory for other people - I can see no downside to learning as much theory as you can. I've never been one of these people that thinks theory stifles creativity, far from it. I wish I'd been able to learn theory but, as I said before, it just makes no sense to me.

[Twigman]

I think only having the basics covered could be, in my circumstance, beneficial.

We write our own stuff....and because we (I) only have basic theory covered, we find ourselves using runs and harmonies that I suspect those with a deeper understanding of theory wouldn't even consider...

and they seem to work.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Twigman

[sunburstjazz1967]

That's what people with no theory always think I'm afraid.