Wonky2 Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) Hi folks Hoping you can help with some advice, suggestion and general guidance.... Ive wanted to try my hand (s) at upright bass for many years but never had the cash spare to "try".... Well, an opportunity has come up for me to buy very very cheap a bass which is new, but broken in transit.... Its sat in a store room of a local shop for some time and took various knocks and bumps, but in general its basically just the neck joint has come apart, the rest is cosmetic. Im fairly good with this type of repair but wondered if there is anything i should be mindfull of rather than just cleaning the splinters out and glueing it back in ? Im not precious, even if i have to dowel the joint or screw it and fill over, as long as i can be sure the neck is set right, at right angle ( no nit ar a right angle! Hahaha) im just mindfull off set up once done ? Any hoo, its missing a bridge, i will need one, but know nothing about them such as type , adjustable, hight , nothing! What should i be looking for ? Also , the thing that retains the strings at the bottom end (sorry, no idea what its even called!) what is it called so i can search for one ? Will need to buy strings too , no idea about gauge, what as a beginer should i look for ? Sorry to sound so ignorant im picking it up tomorrow ir saturday so will be keen to get to work on it Thanks guys, im sooo excited ! Edited January 26, 2016 by Wonky2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJ Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Ok, I'll jump in! If you can afford it, a luthier will save you a lot of time effort and probably money in the long run. I'm not a luthier but... A basic bridge (non-adjustable) will cost about £40 and you will have to do some work shaping the feet to the top of the bass and putting notches in for the strings. Check that there is a sound post in the bass. It looks like a thick piece of dowel and if you are lucky, it will be in place and viewable thru' the f hole on the treble side of the bass. If not it will be rolling around somewhere inside. The thing that retains the strings is an 'endpiece'. They are variable priced and are attached by a wire that looks around the end pin assembly.The cheapest is around £20. I cannot offer any advice about fixing the neck break except seek the help of a luthier. Stings vary enormously in cost and quality and they depend a bit on what you want to do. Some strings are better for pizz (plucking) and others more suitable for arco (bowing). Hope that helps a bit and others will jump in soon. Why not post some picures once you have collected it? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 Thanks steve I will post some pics.... Good news is, it does have end pin and tailpeice. I will check sound post, thanks... The heel part of the neck has broken across where it dove tails into the joint, it looks like it would, after cleaning up, slot back it place nicely, helped with drilling and fixing dowels or buscuit joints and some high grade wood glue. The shop said the other one they did had the same break but less cosmetic damage so they repaired it with wood glue and a countersunk screw right through fret board which was nicely filled over to pretty things up. Id prefer to at least try a more "organic" method of repairing the joint but to be fair, im not precious if it works well enough... We are talking low valueso if i get a good result its a winner, if not it will make sime expensive kindling fir the fire Im fairly confident i can repair it well from a jointing two bits of woods perspective but im mindfull of ensuring it is fixed correctky so's not to affect action etc..... The fettling of a new bridge is ok i guess but i dont even know where it should be position in respect of intonation etc ( does that even matter with a fretless or will minir nuances be picked up by finger poition when freting ? God i really am a dullard here ! Is string hight simply lowered by removing wood from bridge feet or more obvious by buying an adjustable bridge ? I suppose my questions rekate mire to set up than repair ? I just hope when all done i will have made it playable in such a way that the bass itself plays little factor in whether i can take to the upright playing thing or not, id hate to try and not enjoy and the truth be it was because im trying to play a god awful peice of junk ? I can but try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburstjazz1967 Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 The bridge lines up with f hole notches and sits at 90 degrees to the front of the bass. Strings are going to be £80 a set minimum for a set worth fitting imo, plus the bridge. I'd be tempted to fix the neck and then get a luthier to fit and shape the bridge,nut, locate the sound post properly and string it. You can ruin the silks and the £80 strings very easily! Getting the detail done by an expert and some good strings over a badly fitted bridge with dirt cheap strings might be the difference between you sticking at playing it or selling it on at a loss imo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJ Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 [quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1452277390' post='2948493'] The bridge lines up with f hole notches and sits at 90 degrees to the front of the bass. Strings are going to be £80 a set minimum for a set worth fitting imo, plus the bridge. I'd be tempted to fix the neck and then get a luthier to fit and shape the bridge,nut, locate the sound post properly and string it. You can ruin the silks and the £80 strings very easily! Getting the detail done by an expert and some good strings over a badly fitted bridge with dirt cheap strings might be the difference between you sticking at playing it or selling it on at a loss imo? [/quote] Very good advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 Great advice thanks.... I will try and find a local suitable luthier, if any one has any suggestions or contact nearby Runcorn , warrington, liverpool, chester area please let me know... What are silks ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keving Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I still have the strings that came fitted to my Thomann bass before I put Spirocores on it. They're not great, but will at least get you started and find out if it is worth investing in a better set. If you PM me your address you can have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassTool Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Wow can't say fairer than that keving! Great offer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philparker Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Be aware also that there are different widths of bridge - measure the 'f' holes at the narrowest part from the centre of the circular hole on each 'f' hole to give you the width. As mentioned, the middle of the bridge feet line up with the notches in the f holes. As for strings - you can get a good second hand set from this very forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc S Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 If you do end up repairing this yourself - Gorrilla glue is really strong. And I've heard of at least one luthier who uses it. Though I would say, I'd be tempted to get a luthier to fix it, and set it up. The soundpost is vital - so don't put the bridge & strings on if it isnt in place. Re strings, that's a whole can of worms, and hugely more varied than strings for bass guitar. If you want to play pizz (fingers) rather than bow - I found innovation silver slaps were a good start. They're reasonably priced, low tension + I found them much easier tension-wise than steel strings. Can't bow them though..... As others have ssid - you can get 2nd hand strings on here too. I'd opt to spend a bit more and get an adjudtable bridge You can then experiment to find a better action / set up for yourself Most of all though - this is an exciting new journey. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 [quote name='keving' timestamp='1452281679' post='2948548'] I still have the strings that came fitted to my Thomann bass before I put Spirocores on it. They're not great, but will at least get you started and find out if it is worth investing in a better set. If you PM me your address you can have them. [/quote] I think i love you Pm sent ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 Guys, i am truly appreciative of your direction and help. Keving, top class , pm sent with gratis. Well, i picked here up today.... Came with soft gig bag which that itself likley cost close to what i paid! Everything is there with exception of the bridge. Sound post is firmly in place. The repair looks simple, i will opt for bolting through and glueing with intention of going for strength over beauty, allthough to be fair im sure i can make it all quite discreet in appearance. Some of you will likely shudder at the thought but please ber in mind its cost very little and is for starting out If i bolt it at least i can move it , maybe even gig it with a bit more confidence it wont fall in half whilst playing ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) Just looking at adding a piece off threaded stud with lock nut and washer .size M8....? glued joint using either gorrilla, mabe hyde glue, or epoxy ? If i remove the fret board and drill though i can bolt through and conceal the threaded bar/ washer/ locknut quite well... ? How exactly would one go about remiving the finger board ? Edited January 25, 2016 by Wonky2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljbass Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 http://www.talkbass.com/threads/repair-broken-neck-on-upright-bass.980944/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted January 16, 2016 Author Share Posted January 16, 2016 (edited) The repair is mid way through I have taken my time rather than jumping right in.... I cleaned up the two faces, being as minimal as possible in order to retain the majority of original wood removing very little.... If anything, just the slpinters. I worked at this untill i was sure the joint closed fully and was a snug fit. I have chosen to use a length of M8 stud with a washer and lock nut at both ends. I started by using an auger bit large enough (around 15mm) to allow a socket in to tighten the nuts and drilled out to a depth wihich allows the nuts to be hidden and filled over, then used an 8mm auger to drill the full way through. Big holes drilled first followed by the smaller hole, this allows you to keep a centre for the drill.... If you do it the other way around you will have drilled out your centre for the larger auger and the drill bit will flap around leaving an untidy cored hole..... Ive allowed for a decent deapth of filler over the too of the nuts to afford the filler itself some strength and mass. This was done by applying the filler, packing tightly, 5mm at a time to ensure even drying and adherance) I applied lock tight to the thread of the stud and gorrilla epoxy to one face of the timber. The joint has closed up well and both nuts are sunk well enough to allow a decent plug of timber or filler..... I Have sanded the finish off the back of the neck to remove a few tiny dinks and make nice and smooth and followed the sanding down the heel to allow an even refinish.....various grades of sand paper and wire wool (oooo grade) ,wetting the wood between each sanding brings out the grain. Doing this and rubbing back down will help when a finishing oil is added and ensures the grain stays putt to provide a smooth finish/ feel. The are are a few dinks here and there and some cosmetic damage to the finish on the body top under the neck.... I thought long and hard about how to best repair or try to hide the repair somehow, but given the nature if the repair, the cost of the bass and the elements of damage i have to try to hide, i have chosen to try a bit of road ware type look and i have to say i am rather pleased with the results. On the whole, the original glossy finish remains, but i have taken a bit of wet/dry and oooo grade steel wool to the bindings and reduced the finish in places mostly still there but dulled and in some places bare... It looks well i think and helps make the dmage look a little more natural rather than the results you would expect from the reality of a neck and a body rattling round a box in a courriers transit van for days..ware looks better than damage and unless done extremely well wear also looks better than a poor attempt at a cosmetic repair....touch ups always looks shabby ..... I guess many will at this point be vomitting at the thought of what i have done, steel studs, fake road ware, but i think it looks far better now looking worn than it did when it looked damaged....and the repair is as strong as possible. I once bought a fender jazz which had some horrific wounds... I took it in the garage and after a short while it came out looking pretty much like one of fenders road worn or light relic jobs, which again looked far better than damage. Whats more, that bass was fantastic to play as i guess having been so intimate with it i didnt mind treating it very closley rather than being careful all the time.... Lounging round with your favourite bass is great and far far better than the ones that just stay in the case and come out once youve wrapped your belt buckle in bubble wrap ...... (Sorry, im rambling....) Waiting for expoxy to go off properly before i seal/ plug or fill the two 15mm holes in order to allow any moisture out.... Once i have refilled the holes and sanded back to original shape i have bought some mat black enamel to refinish the fret board. I may oil the back of the neck or stain back to match original colour... When all done, i have the new bridge to trim down and shape which again, im not going to rush.... Its gone well so far and i think despite how it sounds, the results look well. I just hope the expoxy bonds well and the repair lasts well. Cant wait to get it strung up and hear it..... Edited January 25, 2016 by Wonky2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJ Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Let's have some pictures of the repair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 Ok, heres a pic of the repair so far... Ive stripped back the finish so that my re-finish is even .... I want to keep the back of the neck finish free so may well wax or oil ? Dont lnow whats best really ? Im curious as to how the finish on the neck heel and head stock is dealt with in the transition between the hard glossy varnish (?) coat and the bare or oiled neck ? Is it just a curve ? Im sure what ever i do here will be not as good as i want it to be ! Hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted January 18, 2016 Author Share Posted January 18, 2016 Im happy with the neck joint now snd the hole i drilled through fret board throught to heel where the bolt runs has been filled and sanded back to a invisible match, well at least when the fret board it refinushed with the matt black enamel paint i have for it.... Should be a good undetectable repair if i can get the finush right..... Tonight i have started with the new bridge. I ordered an adjustable maple bridge which seems to be good quality, a nice peice of maple too. But man alive is shaping this going to take some time ! I have masking taped a sheet of sand paper to the deck and slowly sliwing working the bridge back and forth i am begining to shape the feet. I understand the fit has to be immaculate but its tricky to see against the sand paper so constant checks are a must, but its a slow process and difficult to hold the (loose) adjustable feet square in the bridge as it moves back and forth.... I may mark the sheet with lines and remove the feet to do them individual in order to get a better square hold on them however i am mind full that tgey get and equal amount removed...... This will take some time.... I have strapped the bass to a large cardboard box for a stable work surface, it works quite well with rags under the strap to avoid any rubbing...... Once the feet are shaped i will move on to reducing the hight and begin to shape the radius. I have a template as i understand the radius is not symmetrical/ uniform...... Im nervous about the radius and part of me thinks ..... Go see a luthier.... The other part thinks "its only wood " hahaha.... I figure if i get it wrong i can always go see a luthier with a 2nd new bridge... At least this way i will have tried and whats more enjoyed the experience....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted January 18, 2016 Author Share Posted January 18, 2016 Forget to mention.... The top of the bridge seens to be quite thick ? Any suggestions what thickness it should be at the top where string notches will go ? I think it will need some sand here too to taper the thickness ? Also, silly question...it just occured to me looking at the picture..... Is the a front/ back side ? Still plenty of sanding to do, as the feet fit is still not right..... This is going to take a loooooong time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Tonight i have been able to rw finish the finger board.... Its not an expensive ebony board, its possibly maple ? Anyhoo, the hole where the stud/bolt has been counter sunk was filled and flatted several times before a good overall key with some fine grade sand paper. Next i applied several coats of matt black enamel paint and left to cure... Once hardened i used wet n dry paper with water to flatten the finish further to what was a very pleasing finish with no evidence of said hole/ bolt/ filler..... I considered leaving it at this but feared the finish may wear or degrade strings, so i have opted to finish with several coats of clear hardened acyryllic laquer. The result is fantastic ! I am really pleased with the result! Next is restain and gloss neck heel and apply danish oil to back of neck.... Then its just the bridge..... "Just" he says..... I fear the bridge will take a very long time to get right. Cant tell you how much i have enjoyed this and whats more it has proved to be a succesful repair so far...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted January 21, 2016 Author Share Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Final coat has given a finish which has made the reapair COMPLETLEY invisible .... I am so happy, i hooe the finish cures very hard and lasts a long long time Its likley the learning curve will continue long after the full repair is completed in terms of the longjevity of the repair but i see no reason it should fail in any way .... Again, this isnt a high value or crafted bass.... Its a stentor 1950 student bass, rrp)£1700 , cheapest i can find on line is b stock at £850.... The bag it came in cost more than i paid for it so i am deffinaitly winning here... Ive seen similar basses with repairs that dont look half as good going for £600/550 so i am very happy indeed. just cosmetics niw and the bridge and i can get to hear its voice fir the first time ! Pic below: they are reflections , the finish is flawless Edited January 21, 2016 by Wonky2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc S Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 Well, I've got to say Wonky2, that you seem to have done a really good job with that repair! Nice Re the bridge, again, take your time. After reading your questions about the thickness and taper of the bridge yesterday I went home and took a look at my DB and my EUB. And yes, they're quite wide. Wider perhaps than I'd have thought Of course, the sensible thing to do, would have been to measure them for you - but I got distracted, then off out to rehearsal.... Excuses, excuses.... lol One positive note, is that as you bought an adjustable bridge, you needn't worry too much about taking a little bit more off However, as long as you don't go too far! I've seen someone on a youtube video somewhere, and spoken to a luthier who both talked about making sure you take some wood off the feet of the bridge, as well as the top This was so you make sure of leaving plenty of wood, and hence strength, over the shaped "holes" in the bridge itself If you think about it - if you just shaved wood from the top surface of the bridge, you'd get closer & closer to those shaped holes (don't know what they're called!) and so there would be less strength in the wood above them. And DB strings are under quite some tension... Anyhow, keep at it, don't rush, and test the bridge, maybe with one string, as you go along I'm sure it'll take you a while, but doing it this way, and not going straight to a luthier - you will have learned a lot There's definitely something liberating about taking this approach over an instrument you got cheaply, rather than something you paid a small fortune for. I repaired / re-built a couple of old bass guitars recently which gave me confidence to build one to my own design (from stock parts, it must be said) Cheers now, and best of luck with finishing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted January 21, 2016 Author Share Posted January 21, 2016 Thanks for your kind and constructive comments The feet are quite thick and from looking at pics of bridges on basses i figured they need quite a bit coming off them, as much as the reasons you give (yes perfectly valid) i figure the thicker the feet are the less resonance will transfer from string through bridge to body... So yes, plenty to come off them as most i see are probably only aroun 4mm thick by sight.... One area i need advice on.... Cut bridge height. My intention is to set adjusters to mid point, then with bridge positioned correctly in respect of f hole notches and centred, use a straight edge lay on the neck to transfer its projected angle to the face of the bridge. I will then add appox 10mm too this line and use this eeference point to offer up the paper jazz radius template i have. This should give me a close/ rough line so the once cut shaped it should be close. After notching out for strings this 10mm difference will be reduced to perhaps 6mm, which hopfully should give s good action from which i can use the adjusters on the bridge to dial in or out as required. If any one see's any problems with my approach please do speak up before i end up having to but another bridge hahaha... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonky2 Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 Ok, so tonight was colour refinish on the neck heel.... Ive used sikkens mahogany 045. The match is great! Bit more to do once its cured, wire wool and another coat should see a good colour matched gloss finish which makes the repair invisible, you simply cannot see it. Another coat should even it out and take it just that bit darker to match perfect... So a bit more tomorrow and then its onto danish oil for the neck.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc S Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) You're getting on well with this mate Have you put out a message, to see if another Basschat DB player lives nearby? Might be worth taking your bridge along, to compare shape and height, alongside another DB (or 2) ? Just a thought... Must be some other DB playing BC'ers on musical merseyside I've found most fellow Basschat members to be friendly helpful sorts especially the local guys & gals EDIT: Of course, any bass bridge you compare with may be set up differently But it may give you a ball-park idea. Again, you have gone for the adjustable bridge, which will help with "tweaks" Edited January 22, 2016 by Marc S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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