Mixing speaker sizes... bad idea?

[CamdenRob]

I read something on here a little while back about not mixing speaker sizes in a rig, although I can't remember why that was considered a bad idea? Could one of the initiated put me right

[Happy Jack]

Opinions vary, and a lot depends on which speakers you choose to mix.

One of my favourite rigs is my Compact (15" driver) with my Midget (12" driver).

You're better off trying out the rig you plan to use and just deciding whether or not you like the sound.

Alternatively, you can sit back and await the inevitable bloodbath that this thread will unleash.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1452673431' post='2952176']
Opinions vary, and a lot depends on which speakers you choose to mix.

One of my favourite rigs is my Compact (15" driver) with my Midget (12" driver).

You're better off trying out the rig you plan to use and just deciding whether or not you like the sound.

Alternatively, you can sit back and await the inevitable bloodbath that this thread will unleash.
[/quote]

Yes I only ask as with the new berg neo series coming out the old one (of which I have a 2x10) is going cheap and I quite fancied adding a 112 for the odd occasion I gig without PA support. I'm guessing there may also be issues with there being two 10s getting half the load and only one 112 there too though? I'm not really clued up on these things

[lojo]

The maths guys and the experts i've heard say you shouldn't mix , but my old orange 115 plus 410 was not to be argued with.

Now I use a lightweight 2x210 though

[Phil Starr]

It's fairly simple. The 'sound' of any instrument speaker is a result of peaks and troughs in their frequency responses. No speaker is truly even across the whole range so some sounds the bass produces will be emphasised whist others are washed out. Sometimes the very lowest and highest frequencies are so quiet they might just as well be missing altogether. the usual reason for mixing two different speakers is to get the best of both. However the troughs and peaks of one never line up with the troughs and peaks of the other so you can often end up losing the bits you like.

Mixing speakers is a matter of trying things out without being able to predict the results, and that is irrespective of whether they are the same brand or different brands, they just have to be different. There's nothing bad about it, it's just a bit pot luck. some combinations work and others don't. It's an expensive way of trying to get 'the sound' though, better to find a speaker that does what you want and then get two if you want that sound but louder.

There's a little bit of nonsense on Basschat about all this. A couple of designers on here selling their designs have made some broad statements which are then repeated by fans who love their products but without the deeper understanding of those who made the original statements.

One word of caution though, there are a few technical issues about matching impedance, power handling and sensitivity which could cause problems. I'm really assuming that you would be mixing two 8ohm speakers of broadly similar sensitivity with each capable of handling at least half of the amps power.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1452673840' post='2952184']
Yes I only ask as with the new berg neo series coming out the old one (of which I have a 2x10) is going cheap and I quite fancied adding a 112 for the odd occasion I gig without PA support. I'm guessing there may also be issues with there being two 10s getting half the load and only one 112 there too though? I'm not really clued up on these things
[/quote]

OK that is clearer. If the 2x10 and the 112 are both 8ohms then there won't be a problem so long as both can handle half the amps power output. If either cab is 4ohms you could damage your amp or end up with reduced output.

As above the sound you get will be different from either speaker on it's own, the only way is to try them together, preferably before buying and only if they are both 8ohms

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1452674626' post='2952191']
It's fairly simple. The 'sound' of any instrument speaker is a result of peaks and troughs in their frequency responses. No speaker is truly even across the whole range so some sounds the bass produces will be emphasised whist others are washed out. Sometimes the very lowest and highest frequencies are so quiet they might just as well be missing altogether. the usual reason for mixing two different speakers is to get the best of both. However the troughs and peaks of one never line up with the troughs and peaks of the other so you can often end up losing the bits you like.

Mixing speakers is a matter of trying things out without being able to predict the results, and that is irrespective of whether they are the same brand or different brands, they just have to be different. There's nothing bad about it, it's just a bit pot luck. some combinations work and others don't. It's an expensive way of trying to get 'the sound' though, better to find a speaker that does what you want and then get two if you want that sound but louder.

There's a little bit of nonsense on Basschat about all this. A couple of designers on here selling their designs have made some broad statements which are then repeated by fans who love their products but without the deeper understanding of those who made the original statements.

One word of caution though, there are a few technical issues about matching impedance, power handling and sensitivity which could cause problems. I'm really assuming that you would be mixing two 8ohm speakers of broadly similar sensitivity with each capable of handling at least half of the amps power.
[/quote]

Thanks for that Phil, much appreciated

Sounds like I'd be better off getting a second 210 then... I was just wondering if the 112 would work as it's a smaller solution and would also give me the option of just using that for acoustic type gigs.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1452674626' post='2952191']
Mixing speakers is a matter of trying things out without being able to predict the results, and that is irrespective of whether they are the same brand or different brands, they just have to be different. There's nothing bad about it, it's just a bit pot luck.
[/quote]

Yeah, your essentially increasing the number of variables in the tone equation. If your starting from scratch and have the option of using multiple identical cabs then its pretty much a no brainer to go that way.

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1452673840' post='2952184']
Yes I only ask as with the new berg neo series coming out the old one (of which I have a 2x10) is going cheap and I quite fancied adding a 112 for the odd occasion I gig without PA support. I'm guessing there may also be issues with there being two 10s getting half the load and only one 112 there too though? I'm not really clued up on these things
[/quote]

Similar cabs from same maker are probably going to work fine together. If both cabs are 8ohm then you should be fine although you can only put 2 x the lower powered cab total power into the stack (because the power is shared evenly).The viability all depends on the exact power and impedence of the cabs in question, can you provide links or specs for the actual cabs ?. If you could hold fire for another identical cab then that of course takes all the guess work out of it.

Edited January 13, 2016 by bassman7755

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1452677272' post='2952220']
...can you provide links or specs for the actual cabs ?. If you could hold fire for another identical cab then that of course takes all the guess work out of it.
[/quote]

Yes I did think about just getting another 210 but i think that might be overkill for my needs, I'd like the versatility of the modular setup so I could take various bits with me depending on the situation.

Spec are:

Current cab;[list]
[*]Woofer: 2-10” Neodymium Magnet Woofers
[*]Tweeter: High Intelligibility CN Series Tweeter
[*]Impedance: 8-ohms
[*]Power Handling: 400W RMS
[*]Crossover: Custom Phase-Coherent Crossover w/ Tweeter Control
[*]Frequency Response: 40hZ – 15KhZ
[*]Sensitivity: 99db @ 2.83v / 1-meter
[/list]
Proposed addition;[list]
[*]1-12˝ Neo woofer
[*]High intelligibility tweeter
[*]Power handling: 350 watts
[*]Custom phase-coherent crossover w/ tweeter control
[*]Precision tuned
[*]Frequency response: 40hz-15khz
[*]Sensitivity: 98db @ 2.83v /1meter
[*]Impedance: 8 ohms
[/list]

Edited January 13, 2016 by CamdenRob

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1452677745' post='2952224']
Yes I did think about just getting another 210 but i think that might be overkill for my needs, I'd like the versatility of the modular setup so I could take various bits with me depending on the situation.

Spec are:

Current cab;[list]
[*]Woofer: 2-10” Neodymium Magnet Woofers
[*]Tweeter: High Intelligibility CN Series Tweeter
[*]Impedance: 8-ohms
[*]Power Handling: 400W RMS
[*]Crossover: Custom Phase-Coherent Crossover w/ Tweeter Control
[*]Frequency Response: 40hZ – 15KhZ
[*]Sensitivity: 99db @ 2.83v / 1-meter
[/list]
Proposed addition;[list]
[*]1-12˝ Neo woofer
[*]High intelligibility tweeter
[*]Power handling: 350 watts
[*]Custom phase-coherent crossover w/ tweeter control
[*]Precision tuned
[*]Frequency response: 40hz-15khz
[*]Sensitivity: 98db @ 2.83v /1meter
[*]Impedance: 8 ohms
[/list]
[/quote]

Going by the specs alone it looks like they would work fine together: both 8 ohm, same frequency range, similar sensitivity, power handling not too far out of whack. You would get a decent increase in volume but not quite as much as adding a 2nd 2x10. Probably worth a punt if the new cab is a good bargain.

Edited January 13, 2016 by bassman7755

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1452678653' post='2952242']
Probably worth a punt if the new cab is a good bargain.
[/quote]

Yes most suppliers have slashed the price as there is a new berg neo series coming out... depending on what sells out of the bits I have up for sale, I might give it a go

[Lozz196]

for me I prefer speakers all the same size, purely so I don`t have to re-eq if only using one cab. I know speaker size doesn`t mean a difference in sound, but in general across a range, the 210 will be voiced different to the 115, and that will be different to the 212 etc. I`ve had a good few stacks with 210 & 115 and they`ve been great, but the overall sound was never achievable with only one of the cabs.

[Happy Jack]

Yes Lozz, I notice that the Koreans feel the same way: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35278451

[chris_b]

Many different cabs are designed to work together, Bergs, some Mesa Boogie cabs several Barefaced cabs and others.

The attempt to make "never mix different speaker sizes" a blanket rule is misguided and wrong.

I used a Berg AE112 and AE210 together for several years and it sounded great. The new Berg B Amp has a profiles for CN 12 and 10 mixes, so it seems it was Jim Bergantino's intention that these cabs could be mixed. So yes you can do that.

Edited January 13, 2016 by chris_b

[Conan]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1452674626' post='2952191']
There's a little bit of nonsense on Basschat about all this. A couple of designers on here selling their designs have made some broad statements which are then repeated by fans who love their products but without the deeper understanding of those who made the original statements.
[/quote]

Surely not?! On Basschat????

[JTUK]

Wouldn't worry about it .... I'd want to hear them together whereas you know 2 of the same will be a greater sum than the parts.

Personally, I think 2x210's is THE small rig but other factors come into it when you start accepting compromises.

My big rig is a 212 and 210 load balanced and it sounds great.

I've had 210 and 115 before...and that worked, but cabs should also be a step on anyway...especially from
someone like Bergantino so if he designs them to pair... then they'll pair.

The only thing I'd be wary of is a single 12 bottoming out if you load if for a 210 but 300w against 350/400
shouldn't be an issue.

[xgsjx]

You can get some good sounds mixing speaker cabs, but like Phil said, it's pot luck. That can be from venue to venue as well as sound waves are affected differently by the surroundings.

[chris_b]

That's part of the myth.

It's not pot luck if the cabs were designed to work together and many of them are!!

[Conan]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1452764612' post='2953151']
It's not pot luck if the cabs were designed to work together and many of them are!!
[/quote]

Ah, but were they[b][i] really[/i][/b] "designed" to work together, or do the manufacturers just tell us that so that we'll buy them?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1452777573' post='2953361']
Ah, but were they[b][i] really[/i][/b] "designed" to work together, or do the manufacturers just tell us that so that we'll buy them?
[/quote]+1. I've seen a number of manufacturers make the claim, but the supporting data seems to be kept in the same inaccessible (or mythical?) vault as their SPL, polar response and waterfall charts. IME the only effort that manufacturers make to have their cabs designed to work together is making sure that the stacking corners fit together.

[quote]Current cab;[list]
[*]Woofer: 2-10” Neodymium Magnet Woofers
[*]Tweeter: High Intelligibility CN Series Tweeter
[*]Impedance: 8-ohms
[*]Power Handling: 400W RMS
[*]Crossover: Custom Phase-Coherent Crossover w/ Tweeter Control
[*]Frequency Response: 40hZ – 15KhZ
[*]Sensitivity: 99db @ 2.83v / 1-meter
[/list]
Proposed addition;[list]
[*]1-12˝ Neo woofer
[*]High intelligibility tweeter
[*]Power handling: 350 watts
[*]Custom phase-coherent crossover w/ tweeter control
[*]Precision tuned
[*]Frequency response: 40hz-15khz
[*]Sensitivity: 98db @ 2.83v /1meter
[*]Impedance: 8 ohms
[/list]
[/quote]I see no benefit in adding the twelve. You don't gain any LF extension. The two tweeters will be physically separated, so they'll fight each other more than they'll assist each other. As for the power issue, the thermal power ratings of the two are meaningless. What matters is the displacement limit, which you don't know. The usual reason given for adding a second dissimilar cab is to improve the overall result. IMO if you're not happy with the tone of the cab you have get a different cab. If you're happy with the tone but it doesn't go loud enough get a second identical cab. Doing anything else is like Mamma Gump's proverbial box of chocolates.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[chris_b]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1452777573' post='2953361']
Ah, but were they[b][i] really[/i][/b] "designed" to work together, or do the manufacturers just tell us that so that we'll buy them?
[/quote]

Seriously? Mesa, Barefaced, Bergs?

I'm sorry, in my experience there's so much misinformation, cynical and otherwise on the internet that I'd need it to be proved the cabs [i]didn't [/i]work together rather than the other way around.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1452779384' post='2953403']
IME the only effort that manufacturers make to have their cabs designed to work together is making sure that the stacking corners fit together.

[/quote]

Not that this is a bad idea, of course.

[Phil Starr]

The advantages you'll gain will be something a little less than an extra 6db in overall sound output and a modular rig. Not knowing the excursion isn't really an issue, it hasn't worried you not knowing it for your current speaker and without knowing the frequency response of your bass, the eq you use and so on we don't know if excursion is a problem with this set up. In any case adding a second similar speaker to share the load will reduce the excursion for all the speakers at the same sound level. Bass extension probably won't change much but we don't know anything other than the vague 40-15,000Hz spec, how the cabs roll off at low frequencies isn't stated. In any case we don't know if you want more deep bass. This wouldn't be the best way to get it though. BFM is right about the tweeters but I'd assume you'd turn the one in the bottom cab off.

The main objection to buying the 12 is that you need to try the speakers together before you know how it will sound. If you like your sound then another 2x10 would make sense, if you don't then auditioning other speakers might be more sensible. You might even want to think about 2 112's Listen before parting with your cash.

[CamdenRob]

I really like the sound of the 2x10 The issue with buying another one was that it would be too much for me to get around, whereas adding the 112 would be just about doable in a taxi (for the rare occasion I need more volume than the 210 alone) and would also give me the option of just using the 112, for smaller acoustic type gigs.

Food for thought though... seems as I suspected, it's not straightforward

I haven't made my mind up to go down this road, it's was just an idea, hence the thread

[xgsjx]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1452781616' post='2953444']
Seriously? Mesa, Barefaced, Bergs?

I'm sorry, in my experience there's so much misinformation, cynical and otherwise on the internet that I'd need it to be proved the cabs [i]didn't [/i]work together rather than the other way around.
[/quote]
Mr Barefaced is on here & puts a lot of information on his website and he's on here regularly to discuss what does & doesn't work. I've even seen on here many potential & existing customers talking about having email conversations with Alex.
As for Mr Boogie & Mr Tino, I don't know if either of them have been on here or not, but I've not seen any advice on here about which cabs are suited together.
I don't think it's so much a case of whether it works, but how unpredictable the sound is going to be.