USB interface or USB mixer/interface?

[stevebasshead]

Hi, I’m no whizz at home recording by any stretch, just a hobbyist but I’m getting by, so far.

I’m looking for advice for a replacement USB audio interface. Having seen recent postings in the Beginner’s Guide sticky suggesting that a USB mixer/interface can negate latency issues compared to a USB interface alone I don’t know whether my needs would be better served by a 6 input USB interface or a small mixer that doubles as a USB interface.

Apologies for the long post but it’ll probably help if I describe what I have at the moment, how I use it and why I want to replace it.

My current interface is an old mk1 Zoom H4 recorder going via USB into a 2012 model i7 8GB laptop running Reaper. The Zoom has two inputs, I tend to run an instrument or a mic into one and a switched mic into the other and the Zoom is set to record in mono. When I have my singer in the vocal booth (ok, converted cupboard) I can speak to him via the switched mic but switch it off during a take. If I put the Zoom into stereo mode I can record two inputs at once but I lose the talkback facility.

I take the headphone signal out from the Zoom into a Behringer 4-way headphone amp so the singer and I can have headphones for monitoring and talkback and there’s zero latency that way. That said, every take I record is a few milliseconds out of sync with whatever backing track is in Reaper and I have to nudge it into line which is a minor irritation but one I’d like to get rid of as well as a couple of other improvements.

The singer hates singing without reverb but if I add it in Reaper during a take he can only hear it if I switch to monitoring from Reaper and that adds more latency than he can handle. So we’ve used one of the reverb FX’s in the Zoom which means I can avoid latency issues but then the reverb gets recorded.

So that’s the setup. The Zoom is the limiting factor both for flexibility (and to an extent sound quality.)

What I’m looking to do is to record my bands demos and for speed it’d be better to record us all at once playing as a band but the Zoom’s limited number of inputs prevents this. I would rather record them to individual tracks too so I can mix them after the fact, rather than set up a mix and record that to one stereo track in Reaper.

So what I want, ideally, is to be able to[list]
[*]record four sources simultaneously (each recording to an individual track in Reaper for later mixing). Typically Vox/Guitar/Bass/Drums (electronic kit via midi, triggering Superior Drummer in Reaper) and sometimes Vox/Guitar/Bass/Keyboard (sometimes midi, sometimes recording sounds direct)
[*]add FX for monitoring only (i.e. reverb on vocals) not recording the FX
[*]have zero (or inconsequential) latency monitoring
[*]have four input sources, but ideally six budget permitting, so that I can use an input for talkback to the glorified cupboard/vocal booth, like I do with the Zoom now
[*]record instruments during playback over my monitors instead of using headphones, without latency (but headphone monitoring would suffice if I’m expecting too much here!)
[/list]
My budget is around £200, I can’t justify much more for what I do. I’m torn between going for an interface (for example the Focusrite Scarlett 6i6) and trying to tweak my setup to minimize latency, or a USB mixer (for example the Allen & Heath ZED 10FX) so I’d get hardware monitoring/no latency and also adding the delay a the mixers inbuilt FX for the singer, just for monitoring. Presumably I can route it so it still records dry.

I’m not set on those two bits of kit, just using them as examples of hardware I think will fit the bill.

How’s my thinking so far, am I on the right lines? Any better options? Asking too much at this price point? All advice welcome with open ears

Edited January 13, 2016 by stevebasshead

[Mottlefeeder]

[quote name='stevebasshead' timestamp='1452698949' post='2952561']
Hi, I’m no whizz at home recording by any stretch, just a hobbyist but I’m getting by, so far.

I’m looking for advice for a replacement USB audio interface. Having seen recent postings in the Beginner’s Guide sticky suggesting that a USB mixer/interface can negate latency issues compared to a USB interface alone I don’t know whether my needs would be better served by a 6 input USB interface or a small mixer that doubles as a USB interface.

Apologies for the long post but it’ll probably help if I describe what I have at the moment, how I use it and why I want to replace it.

My current interface is an old mk1 Zoom H4 recorder going via USB into a 2012 model i7 8GB laptop running Reaper. The Zoom has two inputs, I tend to run an instrument or a mic into one and a switched mic into the other and the Zoom is set to record in mono. When I have my singer in the vocal booth (ok, converted cupboard) I can speak to him via the switched mic but switch it off during a take. If I put the Zoom into stereo mode I can record two inputs at once but I lose the talkback facility.

I take the headphone signal out from the Zoom into a Behringer 4-way headphone amp so the singer and I can have headphones for monitoring and talkback and there’s zero latency that way. That said, every take I record is a few milliseconds out of sync with whatever backing track is in Reaper and I have to nudge it into line which is a minor irritation but one I’d like to get rid of as well as a couple of other improvements.

The singer hates singing without reverb but if I add it in Reaper during a take he can only hear it if I switch to monitoring from Reaper and that adds more latency than he can handle. So we’ve used one of the reverb FX’s in the Zoom which means I can avoid latency issues but then the reverb gets recorded.

So that’s the setup. The Zoom is the limiting factor both for flexibility (and to an extent sound quality.)

What I’m looking to do is to record my bands demos and for speed it’d be better to record us all at once playing as a band but the Zoom’s limited number of inputs prevents this. I would rather record them to individual tracks too so I can mix them after the fact, rather than set up a mix and record that to one stereo track in Reaper.

So what I want, ideally, is to be able to[list]
[*]record four sources simultaneously (each recording to an individual track in Reaper for later mixing). Typically Vox/Guitar/Bass/Drums (electronic kit via midi, triggering Superior Drummer in Reaper) and sometimes Vox/Guitar/Bass/Keyboard (sometimes midi, sometimes recording sounds direct)
[*]add FX for monitoring only (i.e. reverb on vocals) not recording the FX
[*]have zero (or inconsequential) latency monitoring
[*]have four input sources, but ideally six budget permitting, so that I can use an input for talkback to the glorified cupboard/vocal booth, like I do with the Zoom now
[*]record instruments during playback over my monitors instead of using headphones, without latency (but headphone monitoring would suffice if I’m expecting too much here!)
[/list]
My budget is around £200, I can’t justify much more for what I do. I’m torn between going for an interface (for example the Focusrite Scarlett 6i6) and trying to tweak my setup to minimize latency, or a USB mixer (for example the Allen & Heath ZED 10FX) so I’d get hardware monitoring/no latency and also adding the delay a the mixers inbuilt FX for the singer, just for monitoring. Presumably I can route it so it still records dry.

I’m not set on those two bits of kit, just using them as examples of hardware I think will fit the bill.

How’s my thinking so far, am I on the right lines? Any better options? Asking too much at this price point? All advice welcome with open ears
[/quote]
One area you have not commented on is the quality of recording that you want. A cheap mixer with a USB facility tacked on because it has become flavour of the month will not have the sound quality of the Focusrite gear. Whether you can hear the difference, or whether it matters, is down to you.

In my case I had to move from a quality sound card which was not supported by Win8. I found that I could not tell the difference between that and a Tascam portable recorder, so that suited me. At that time, another user was selling a Behringer USB mixer because he could hear that it was not as good as some other gear he was used to.

David

[stevebasshead]

Hi David,

Very true, but quantifying and describing sound quality is a minefield I'll try not to venture to deeply into, one man's warm is another's dull etc. And maybe the differences between the top flight interfaces (within my budget) and a mixer with an interface bolted on will be too subtle for my 51 yr old tinnitus affected ears to detect. I guess though, people who listen to what I record might still notice, so I want something at least decent.

The Zoom is the only interface I've used but it's some 10/11 years old now (I got my H4 when they first came out, 2005 I think.) So perhaps as a multifunction device in the first place it didn't have high end AD/DA converters that dedicated USB interfaces on the market back then might have had and which are a decade further forward now. Besides I've no reference to compare the Zoom to, and I don't know anyone with an interface I could borrow to compare it to.

Primarily I need more inputs and to reduce or eliminate latency while adding FX for monitoring purposes. If recording quality improves at the same time then all the better, but I wouldn't want it to be any worse than what I have with the Zoom.

Steve.

[Beedster]

There are some pretty good deals on USB mixers on eBay at the moment, IIRC there's a Mackie Onyx 1220i going very low. The whole Onyx series is very good (I use the 1640i which I love and which, once I got my head around getting it to talk to my iMac, has been trouble free for years). I also have a

[Beedster]

...RME Fireface 400, which I thought I might use more given its smaller size and ease of access etc (sits in a desktop rack), but it really doesn't get much use with the Mackie around.

[stevebasshead]

Cheers Beedster, I'll watch out for the Mackie's on eBay but I think the RME is out of my price range

Edited January 13, 2016 by stevebasshead

[Beedster]

[quote name='stevebasshead' timestamp='1452703622' post='2952645']
Cheers Beedster, I'll watch out for the Mackie's on eBay but I think the RME is out of my price range
[/quote]

I think the RME is not what you want though, sounds like a Mackie would be the answer to the question at the top.

[Beedster]

This http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mackie-Onyx-1220i-mixer-/181969980941?hash=item2a5e418e0d:g:QS0AAOSw3KFWeaK~ seems like a potentially good bet?

[DaveFry]

That ebay Mackie connects via firewire . OPs laptop probably only has usb .

[stevebasshead]

Cheers Beedster and yes quite possibly a contender but it's probably overkill for my needs (and 50% over budget).

And yep, DaveFry, I just spotted it's firewire only, I'm not sure if my W7 laptop has firewire I'll have to check when I get home.

[stevebasshead]

Just got home and checked, my laptop is usb only

[xgsjx]

Have a look at the NI Komplete Audio 6 & see if it'll fit your needs.
It's got 4 audio ins, midi in & out & SPDIF in & out. Solid bit of kit & great sound quality.
It's £169 (though you might find a better deal if you wait until after NAMM), that would leave you at least £30 to spend on a small headphone splitter (so you can use 4 sets of headphones).

I got myself one for Xmas & I'm well impressed.

[stevebasshead]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1452787698' post='2953533']
Have a look at the NI Komplete Audio 6 & see if it'll fit your needs.
It's got 4 audio ins, midi in & out & SPDIF in & out. Solid bit of kit & great sound quality.
It's £169 (though you might find a better deal if you wait until after NAMM), that would leave you at least £30 to spend on a small headphone splitter (so you can use 4 sets of headphones).

I got myself one for Xmas & I'm well impressed.
[/quote]Cheers xgsjx, could be a contender. Do you know if all 4 inputs can be used simultaneously with each being recorded on its own track in the DAW? And if inputs 3&4 which the manual says are balanced (so TRS cable?) would be ok with an instrument plugged in with a mono cable?

[Musashimonkey]

I've had great success with Focusrite and would recommend them. Sibob was a great help to me in deciding which model to go for.

[xgsjx]

[quote name='stevebasshead' timestamp='1452802734' post='2953705']
Cheers xgsjx, could be a contender. Do you know if all 4 inputs can be used simultaneously with each being recorded on its own track in the DAW? And if inputs 3&4 which the manual says are balanced (so TRS cable?) would be ok with an instrument plugged in with a mono cable?
[/quote]
You can record all 4 ins at once as 4 separate tracks in you DAW.
I'll check how it sounds with my bass plugged into input 3 & post comparisons for you. From what I read, you can use a mono or stereo jack in each input (just like the front ins).

[stevebasshead]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1452877171' post='2954394']
You can record all 4 ins at once as 4 separate tracks in you DAW.
I'll check how it sounds with my bass plugged into input 3 & post comparisons for you. From what I read, you can use a mono or stereo jack in each input (just like the front ins).
[/quote]You're a gent, thank you

[stevebasshead]

Think I've ruled out the Allen and Heath ZED range and Mackie ProFXv2 mixers, both seem to have a USB that outputs in stereo only i.e. I wouldn't be able to record multiple inputs to individual tracks, if I've understood the manuals correctly they'll only send two channels at a time out to the DAW.

Does anyone know if there any USB interfaces or USB mixers (other than the NI Komplete 6 xgsjx has) which can send 4-6 individual tracks over USB?

[xgsjx]

I think most USB mixers can put out on multiple tracks, but there are some that don't.
Same goes for multi in audio interfaces. I went for the KA6 because it has lots of connections compared to most in the same price bracket. Had I went 2nd hand, then I dare say there would have been a good few others to consider.

I'll try & get the bass recorded on Sunday. Off to bed shortly & got a day away tomorrow.

[stevebasshead]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1452898003' post='2954666']
I think most USB mixers can put out on multiple tracks, but there are some that don't.
Same goes for multi in audio interfaces. I went for the KA6 because it has lots of connections compared to most in the same price bracket. Had I went 2nd hand, then I dare say there would have been a good few others to consider.

I'll try & get the bass recorded on Sunday. Off to bed shortly & got a day away tomorrow.
[/quote]Cheers for that, I read the manual for the Komplete and it ticks a lot of boxes. There's a daunting amount of kit out there so recommendations are appreciated

Enjoy your weekend. Don't feel obliged to record anything if you're busy, weekends I know are precious.

Edited January 15, 2016 by stevebasshead

[xgsjx]

[quote name='stevebasshead' timestamp='1452899605' post='2954684']
Cheers for that, I read the manual for the Komplete and it ticks a lot of boxes. There's a daunting amount of kit out there so recommendations are appreciated
[/quote]
Been a busy week, but I've got it done.

I made 2 identical tracks in Logic, set one to Input 1 & the other to Input 4.
Played the exact same thing for both using the same bass & cable (just unplugged from input 1 & plugged int input 4).

https://soundcloud.com/xgsjx/bass-into-ka6-1-vs-4

Hope it's what you're looking for.

[stevebasshead]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1453396745' post='2959165']
Been a busy week, but I've got it done.

I made 2 identical tracks in Logic, set one to Input 1 & the other to Input 4.
Played the exact same thing for both using the same bass & cable (just unplugged from input 1 & plugged int input 4).

[url="https://soundcloud.com/xgsjx/bass-into-ka6-1-vs-4"]https://soundcloud.c...into-ka6-1-vs-4[/url]

Hope it's what you're looking for.
[/quote]Thanks for that, really appreciate you taking the time

There's not much at all between the two. The 2nd half (input 4) has a shade less clarity which I think you noted on your soundcloud comment, but in isolation I'd certainly be hard pressed to notice. Comparing the two one after the other, it's there but not huge. I'd be tempted to call input 4 "a hint of vintage" lol! It reminds me of the same level of difference (in terms of clarity that is) that I heard when I recorded and compared an old Mullard ECC83 against an Electro Harmonix one a while back. There was more to it than that but that little loss of top end was about the same that I noticed then.

So, the NI Komplete is definitely on the shortlist There's a new Allen & Heath one coming out yet soon that looks like it'll fit the bill too, the ZED[b]i[/b]-10FX (all new 'i' prefix don't know if it's replacing the ZED 10FX.) [url="http://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/zedi-10FX/"]http://www.allen-hea...ucts/zedi-10FX/[/url] I've got a month or so before I settle on one, I'm taking early retirement and need to get finances settled into place before I commit to one.

I've been looking at this one over the last couple of days [url="https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/midi-studio-controller/icon-aio-6-usb-midi-studio-controller-audio-interface."]https://www.bax-shop...udio-interface.[/url] Seems to offer a decent amount of flexibility as well as acting as a control surface, but I can't find much info on the net. I've only found one independent review, albeit a positive one and the build quality looks a little suspect and nowhere near the NI Komplete. That and the lack of info on the net is probably telling!...

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='stevebasshead' timestamp='1452698949' post='2952561']
I’m looking for advice for a replacement USB audio interface. Having seen recent postings in the Beginner’s Guide sticky suggesting that a USB mixer/interface can negate latency issues compared to a USB interface alone I don’t know whether my needs would be better served by a 6 input USB interface or a small mixer that doubles as a USB interface.
...
That said, every take I record is a few milliseconds out of sync with whatever backing track is in Reaper and I have to nudge it into line which is a minor irritation but one I’d like to get rid of as well as a couple of other improvements.
[/quote]

Thats happening because your daw is missing some information to calculate the correct offset to apply (probably because the zoom and/or its USB drivers were not designed with live recording to a DAW in mind), this should not be a problem with any kit specifically designed for recording to a computer.

[quote]
So what I want, ideally, is to be able to[list]
[*]record four sources simultaneously (each recording to an individual track in Reaper for later mixing). Typically Vox/Guitar/Bass/Drums (electronic kit via midi, triggering Superior Drummer in Reaper) and sometimes Vox/Guitar/Bass/Keyboard (sometimes midi, sometimes recording sounds direct)
[*]add FX for monitoring only (i.e. reverb on vocals) not recording the FX
[*]have zero (or inconsequential) latency monitoring
[*]have four input sources, but ideally six budget permitting, so that I can use an input for talkback to the glorified cupboard/vocal booth, like I do with the Zoom now
[*]record instruments during playback over my monitors instead of using headphones, without latency (but headphone monitoring would suffice if I’m expecting too much here!)
[/list]
My budget is around £200, I can’t justify much more for what I do. I’m torn between going for an interface (for example the Focusrite Scarlett 6i6) and trying to tweak my setup to minimize latency, or a USB mixer (for example the Allen & Heath ZED 10FX) so I’d get hardware monitoring/no latency and also adding the delay a the mixers inbuilt FX for the singer, just for monitoring. Presumably I can route it so it still records dry.
[/quote]

I'd go for the latter in your situation since the only way (short of a PCI card based pro tools setup costing thousands **) to get super low latency monitoring is by direct monitoring from the recording device and most do not have built in realtime effects. USB interfaces all have at least 12 milliseconds round strip latency even with minimum driver buffering when monitoring via the DAW software, [url="https://www.presonus.com/community/Learn/The-Truth-About-Digital-Audio-Latency"]this is unavoidable because of the mechanics of the USB interface[/url] * - if you cant live with this level of monitoring latency and need an effected monitoring sound then you need an interface that can put effects on the live monitor output such as that mixer you listed.

* [size=3]presonus article is slightly pessimistic because they dont take into account "gaming" usb ports with higher polling rates which can give much lower latency than the 21ms they quote but were still talking 12-13 ms absolute best case.[/size]

[size=3]** having said this, soundblaster Xfi cards are a good budget option if you only need 2 channel recording, I've achieved round trip latency of 6ms with mine, but obviously this isnt an option on a laptop.[/size]

Edited January 24, 2016 by bassman7755

[stevebasshead]

That's superb info, many thanks. Re the Zoom - I've had a look in Reaper and it does have the option to adjust for offset from an audio interface, I never knew it could cater for it. I'll have a play with that...at least it will remove one niggle while I'm looking around for a new interface.

[TorturedSaints]

I have a Focusrite Saffire Pro26 (which is FireWire so no use to you Steve), however it comes with Focusrite MixControl. If the Scarlett interfaces have their own version of this (downloadable from their website) you can create headphone mixes with no delay/latency and add comfort reverb for the vocalist as well (signal recorded dry). Having said that, I don't bother as the latency achievable on my iMac (2012) and Reaper is so low as to be not noticeable. Hope this helps.

Edited to say, yes there is a MixControl for Scarlett, and the tutorial is here: [url="http://global.focusrite.com/answerbase/scarlett-mixcontrol-tutorial-0"]http://global.focusrite.com/answerbase/scarlett-mixcontrol-tutorial-0[/url]

Edited January 29, 2016 by RalphDWilson