Spraying a sunburst using nitro cans

[Geek99]

Any advice ?
Do I need to use grain filler ? Body is sunburst now, bare wood in places but acrylic paint - flakes off easily though

[PlungerModerno]

Not sure - Depends on what your working towards, and what you have to work with . . .

If it's an open grained wood like oak, or ash for example, It would be advisable to fill the grain. Unless of course you want to keep the texture.
If it's maple or another "ready to paint" woods - I'd just hit it with a few coats of poly clearcoat, then get the nitro colours for a final layer. AFAIK Fender did it for years for consistancy in their nitro finishes. Could be mistaken however.

[Geek99]

I'm not sure what wood -I'll post a picture

[paulnb57]

I'm bit confused by your description of the current finish, but if it is flaky, then I suggest you strip the lot off and start again.....I suppose grain filler depends on what finish you are trying to achieve, I havent done many refinishes, but I have never grain filled cos I like the paint to sink into the grain a bit so I can see the lines in the paint.....I have used automotive cellulose rattle cans with great success... not had the bottle to attempt a sunburst yet though! There is a bit of an art to spraying with rattlecans and if you have not used them before it may be better to do one solid colour for your first bash at it. There are sunburst videos on the tube...an example....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bEj4HhDX7cA


Heres my LP jr copy, bare mahogany neck and body, Halfords white primer and Halfords Satin Black....

[URL=http://s260.photobucket.com/user/paulnb57/media/imagejpg2_zpsc71baa2c.jpg.html][IMG]http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii21/paulnb57/imagejpg2_zpsc71baa2c.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Same paint on 51 p bass sprayed last week no primer......

[URL=http://s260.photobucket.com/user/paulnb57/media/image_zpseewhm72o.jpeg.html][IMG]http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii21/paulnb57/image_zpseewhm72o.jpeg[/IMG][/URL]

Edited January 18, 2016 by paulnb57

[Geek99]

Nice work - i dont want sunken grain though
It comes off easily with the blunt side of a kitchen knife - im sure its acrylic or poly although its quite thin. I want something thin, old looking and sunburst so it breaks out to relic in record time. I accept poly isnt going to do that.
I hear you can get crazing by putting the nitro painted body in the freezer so ill try that too

[Manton Customs]

[quote name='PlungerModerno' timestamp='1453146372' post='2956868']
Not sure - Depends on what your working towards, and what you have to work with . . .

If it's an open grained wood like oak, or ash for example, It would be advisable to fill the grain. Unless of course you want to keep the texture.
If it's maple or another "ready to paint" woods - I'd just hit it with a few coats of poly clearcoat, then get the nitro colours for a final layer. AFAIK Fender did it for years for consistancy in their nitro finishes. Could be mistaken however.
[/quote]

Why the Poly coat? Fender do this on certain models due to mass production - spraying all instruments colour coats with Poly then clear coating Nitro on just the models which offer it (not many!). That way they get to offer a Nitro finish easily . It also helps with finish checking having the Poly basecoat. But you can't get Polyester/good urethane in rattle cans and it could introduce incompatibility issues depending on the brand, so it's not really a good idea. You're also missing a large very important part from that sequence....the clear coats! They go on last .

You need to strip it if it is flaking, or no matter what you paint over it, it will end up lifting or chipping. You should be able to assess from there if it'll require grain filling (or posting a pic). Alder is probably a possibility, if so it won't need grain filling. Make sure your prep work is faultless, as the finish will magnify imperfections. Then you can spray your burst, here's a good article on the process to give you the order of things http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Instrument_Finishing_and_Finish_Repair/How_to_spray_a_sunburst_using_aerosol_cans.html

Edited January 18, 2016 by Manton Customs

[PlungerModerno]

[quote name='Manton Customs' timestamp='1453154655' post='2956999']
Why the Poly coat? Fender do this on certain models due to mass production - spraying all instruments colour coats with Poly then clear coating Nitro on just the models which offer it (not many!). That way they get to offer a Nitro finish easily . It also helps with finish checking having the Poly basecoat. But you can't get Polyester/good urethane in rattle cans and it could introduce incompatibility issues depending on the brand, so it's not really a good idea. You're also missing a large very important part from that sequence....the clear coats! They go on last .

You need to strip it if it is flaking, or no matter what you paint over it, it will end up lifting or chipping. You should be able to assess from there if it'll require grain filling (or posting a pic). Alder is probably a possibility, if so it won't need grain filling. Make sure your prep work is faultless, as the finish will magnify imperfections. Then you can spray your burst, here's a good article on the process to give you the order of things [url="http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Instrument_Finishing_and_Finish_Repair/How_to_spray_a_sunburst_using_aerosol_cans.html"]http://www.stewmac.c...rosol_cans.html[/url]
[/quote]

Fair enough - I know when somebody probably knows a whole lot more than me about it . . . I always thought the only difference between clear and colour coats was the pigment and other additives each has (e.g. clear may have UV protection additives, or a satin additive). I'd use the poly (or other hardwearing can or wipe on paint) as a way to get the body 100% flat and finished (you could use clear or colour layers) before the nitro. I guess if it's going to be a solid amber or "sun" colour basecoat it can be any colour underneath - but the nicest sunburst (or any 'burst finishes) I've seen are the transparent ones. Like:

Hence my logic (I seem to recall) of using clear on top of the wood to get it ready for top coats. I'd still want to cover the burst with clear nitro to get the look right,
If I was going to the trouble of spraying nitro (which as alluded to above, needs specific heat & humidity to work well, I've heard it's fussier than most paints).

[Manton Customs]

Ah, I see what you were thinking ...basically using a Poly type product as a sanding sealer/wash coat. Depending on the product it'd probably work, but I wouldn't wipe anything onto a surface that's going to be sprayed as it will not be as level as a sprayed coat. And then there is the possible reaction the two finishes may have with each other. The conventional way of doing what you describe is applying either Nitro based sanding sealer or a few coats of thinned Nitro. As we are talking aerosols here, it'd be fine to just seal with a couple of coats of clear Nitro if you can't get a sanding sealer and the prep is good. Some will even spray their burst onto bare wood. I believe Fender are in the minority with spraying a Poly underneath as they are a company that sprays primarily Polyester and Urethane. Gibson certainly do it the "normal" way with only Nitro.

You are correct, coloured Nitro or Poly is just clear with additives such as pigment or flatners (fine particles) for Satins and Mattes. But you need to protect those colours, which is where the clear coats come in. Otherwise minor scratches would actually remove colour.

Nitro isn't too bad to spray, all finishes have their downsides, Nitro's is that it doesn't like damp when spraying and that it's extremely toxic. But it does lay down well compared to other products and repairs better than any other finish as it burns in, so mistakes during spraying can be fairly easy to correct if necessary.

All that aside and sticking more closely to the original topic, it needs to be perfectly level before spraying, so stripping it back is the only way. Touching up or repairing a burst is a nightmare!

Edited January 19, 2016 by Manton Customs

[PlungerModerno]

Ah - the voice of experience. ^^^^^

You're definitely right about doing 'bursts or other effects - you have one shot to do it perfectly, or you'll be doing some seriously finicky work. Or just lose patience and hide it with a solid colour!

[Twigman]

Anyone know any sources for nitro that can be used in an airbrush...not rattle cans?

[PlungerModerno]

No idea! did a quick search and came up with these . . . seems legitimate!

[url="http://www.rothkoandfrost.com/guitar-lacquer/"]http://www.rothkoandfrost.com/guitar-lacquer/[/url]

Looks like they do both aerosol and bottles for airbrushing. The note "Availability: Only ships to UK and Europe" is encouraging. Probably means it's the real stuff. Which means it's horribly toxic and won't be touched by a lot of air freight carriers without special precautions & such!

[Geek99]

[quote name='Manton Customs' timestamp='1453154655' post='2956999']
Why the Poly coat? Fender do this on certain models due to mass production - spraying all instruments colour coats with Poly then clear coating Nitro on just the models which offer it (not many!). That way they get to offer a Nitro finish easily . It also helps with finish checking having the Poly basecoat. But you can't get Polyester/good urethane in rattle cans and it could introduce incompatibility issues depending on the brand, so it's not really a good idea. You're also missing a large very important part from that sequence....the clear coats! They go on last .

You need to strip it if it is flaking, or no matter what you paint over it, it will end up lifting or chipping. You should be able to assess from there if it'll require grain filling (or posting a pic). Alder is probably a possibility, if so it won't need grain filling. Make sure your prep work is faultless, as the finish will magnify imperfections. Then you can spray your burst, here's a good article on the process to give you the order of things [url="http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Learn_About_Instrument_Finishing_and_Finish_Repair/How_to_spray_a_sunburst_using_aerosol_cans.html"]http://www.stewmac.c...rosol_cans.html[/url]
[/quote]
thanks for this

[Manton Customs]

No problem . The Nitro from Rothko & Frost that Plunger suggested above is good stuff.

[Geek99]

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1453145700' post='2956850']
Any advice ?
Do I need to use grain filler ? Body is sunburst now, bare wood in places but acrylic paint - flakes off easily though
[/quote]
To clarify, it comes off easily with the side of a knife, it's not flaking of its own accord

So can I clarify advice for rattle cans ?
Grain filler possibiy
Clear coat
Amber coat
Black edges
Red stripe browning out to edges
Clear coats
Is that correct ?

Edited January 22, 2016 by Geek99

[Manton Customs]

It shouldn't chip off like that, so get rid of it . Even if it had adhered properly you'd probably never be able to get the areas with old lacquer level to the new lacquer and certainly not be able to blend a sunburst into it.

Yes, that sequence will work. You could also spray the black edges first (after sealer) like the article I posted. You'll want to ensure your first sealer coats of clear are dead level so block sand it with 600 paper. Here is another article which gets mentioned a lot when people are talking bursts http://www.reranch.com/sunburstaerosol.html

Make sure you spray a couple of barrier coats of clear after your amber. This means you can remove any overspray from the darker colours with light sanding, as you'll be sanding the clear and not the colour.