Am I being silly?

[ahpook]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1453422742' post='2959484']
Very true - it's nice to get paid occasionally as well...
[/quote]

I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive, few things are.

Edited January 22, 2016 by ahpook

[blue]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1453378857' post='2958878']

An aside benefit is that I don't have any worries about money or accountants, having nothing worth counting. Crazy..? Surely, but content to be so.[/quote]

I'm not sure I'll ever understand the whole playing for free thing.

However, I have cloudy memories of not caring much about the money, back in the late 60s and early 70s. I was a teenager living with my parents with no bills.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='roceci' timestamp='1453318526' post='2958441']
Never knew you were a bar band guy Blue

Spot on tho with everything there, particularly having one person talk $$ & the fact that it's a business.[/quote]

Speaking of money.

The other thing that's nice with my band is no on stage talent handles collecting the fee. We have a really nice lady that does most of the marketing stuff, makes sure we back playing after and not taking extended breaks, sells merch. etc..

She pays everyone in cash within a few minutes of load out like clock work.

I'm not sure all bar bands are run like this.

I know some musicians that are actually uncomfortable or even afraid to ask for the fee at the end of the night.

Blue

Edited January 22, 2016 by blue

[Happy Jack]

How much does the nice lady earn?

[TimR]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1453446589' post='2959519']
How much does the nice lady earn?


[/quote]

As it's the US it'll be a fixed %age.

In the UK it would be the guitarist's girlfriend. Her payment is being able to keep an eye on him while he is at gigs.

Edited January 22, 2016 by TimR

[JTUK]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1453464172' post='2959691']
As it's the US it'll be a fixed %age.

In the UK it would be the guitarist's girlfriend. Her payment is being able to keep an eye on him while he is at gigs.
[/quote]

[JTUK]

It sounds like another mouth to feed... and then there is the question of trust.
You must be paying them so how do you know what is going on... unless everything is receipted..??

This is why we pay admin fees...so the guy doing the extra work... gets re-imbursed..

In our spreadsheet we have P.A, Lights admin and kitty which is basically a 6th share.
Pub work is always a loss... but function work pays those bills... but unless you go a lot above £1k
for a gig the top pay-out tends to be £150 per man.

[TimR]

Dealing with people and money is always a PITA. I can see why lots of people will do pub gigs for £80 and that's it.

And I can see why some will only join established acts that don't have to do the pub gigs and suffer the arguments about being "Better than that".

I'm in two camps. I'm happy to do pub gigs and I'm happy to be in a function band. I'm not sure I'm happy to be in a function band that has to do low paid gigs to get a name going. It always ends in arguments.

.

Edited January 22, 2016 by TimR

[cameltoe]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1453429347' post='2959498']


Speaking of money.

The other thing that's nice with my band is no on stage talent handles collecting the fee. We have a really nice lady that does most of the marketing stuff, makes sure we back playing after and not taking extended breaks, sells merch. etc..

She pays everyone in cash within a few minutes of load out like clock work.

I'm not sure all bar bands are run like this.

Blue
[/quote]


'Bar Bands' sound like they could be different to 'Pub Bands'.

[JTUK]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1453465688' post='2959712']
Dealing with people and money is always a PITA. I can see why lots of people will do pub gigs for £80 and that's it.

And I can see why some will only join established acts that don't have to do the pub gigs and suffer the arguments about being "Better than that".

I'm in two camps. I'm happy to do pub gigs and I'm happy to be in a function band. I'm not sure I'm happy to be in a function band that has to do low paid gigs to get a name going. It always ends in arguments.

.
[/quote]

Yep, always a balancing between paying the best you can and jfdi...!!

The best guys I use, I pay £80 for a pub gig... and the balance is they know I'm feeding them work and I try not to insult them with poor gigs.... and they'll go along with this but I know it is their careers so they'll always be after the bigger tour work
but they don't mind my nonsense from time to time.
They know at the end of the year it is always about gross £'s and you wont get that by not working.

[keefbaker]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1453428830' post='2959497']
I'm not sure I'll ever understand the whole playing for free thing.
[/quote]
Ok, well I'll explain if from my own perspective... I run my own business... I make quite a bit from it... The kind of money I'd get from a gig would be buttons so I don't care about it, I play because I like playing. I get to choose when I play, I don't play wedding or bar gigs so no contracts and therefore no financial protection required.

To me it's like golf. Some people play golf for fun, I play bass.

That said if I was asked to sign a performance contract that included penaltied then hells sh*t I wouldn't do that for free.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='keefbaker' timestamp='1453469940' post='2959773']...
To me it's like golf. Some people play golf for fun, I play bass...
[/quote]

I wonder if professional golfers 'get' this concept..? All that expertise and tuition fees, the cost of your clubs and gloves, the humping to and from the course, the precious time away from family and friends... Who'd do all that for free, and sometimes even in the rain (well, light drizzle, at least...)..? Must be daft, surely..?

[TimR]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1453472828' post='2959805']


I wonder if professional golfers 'get' this concept..? All that expertise and tuition fees, the cost of your clubs and gloves, the humping to and from the course, the precious time away from family and friends... Who'd do all that for free, and sometimes even in the rain (well, light drizzle, at least...)..? Must be daft, surely..?
[/quote]

It depends what service you're providing as a hobby golfer.

Are you playing against people you wouldn't normally chose to socialise with?
Are people coming to watch you play and getting upset when you don't win?
Are people buying clubs based on what you're using?
Are you getting up at 8:00am every morning to teach someone you don't know and possibly don't like?
Are you driving hundreds of miles to play in a tournament while all your mates are off on a weekend jolly somewhere else?

There's a point at which your services become more valuable to someone else than the enjoyment you're getting from playing.

Edited January 22, 2016 by TimR

[keefbaker]

Absolutely. If I were in that situation I'd drop out of that rather than ask for financial recompense because I can get more money elsewhere. I totally get why people charge, but also why people don't. Just because I tend not to charge doesn't mean other people who are using this as a business shouldn't.

#NotAllBassPlayers

[Dad3353]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1453473795' post='2959817']
It depends what service you're providing as a hobby golfer.

Are you playing against people you wouldn't normally chose to socialise with?
Are people coming to watch you play and getting upset when you don't win?
Are people buying clubs based on what you're using?
Are you getting up at 8:00am every morning to teach someone you don't know and possibly don't like?
Are you driving hundreds of miles to play in a tournament while all your mates are off on a weekend jolly somewhere else?

There's a point at which your services become more valuable to someone else than the enjoyment you're getting from playing.
[/quote]

There's no denying all of that, but there are so many doing it at a much less intense way (whilst still being very good at it...). Those playing as amateurs are not taking anything from anybody, and not pretending to be any more than 'week-end warriors' (well, only a little..!). There's a place for all, and mutual tolerance and respect would be useful, I'd say.

[peteb]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1453475511' post='2959832']
There's no denying all of that, but there are so many doing it at a much less intense way (whilst still being very good at it...). Those playing as amateurs are not taking anything from anybody, and not pretending to be any more than 'week-end warriors' (well, only a little..!). There's a place for all, and mutual tolerance and respect would be useful, I'd say.
[/quote]
I can see your point but I think that the issue is that in a very competitive live music scene, some very amateurish bands play for free or next to nothing and undercut much better bands that expect to be paid the going rate. All of this is against a background of pubs struggling to keep afloat and fewer opportunities for new bands.

As a result, punters get a poor experience and don't come again, possibly being put off the idea of watching live music and landlords stop putting bands on and go around telling other landlords that live music is a waste of time.

However, pubs that do their homework and book the right bands for the going rate still seem to be reasonable busy. But the market is being undermined by rubbish bands and naive landlords...!

[keefbaker]

TBH if someone told me I had to play Mustang Sally in front of a bar full of drunk people.... No way would I do that for free.

I have loads of respect for the people who go out and do bar work. I'm not one of them, I play the gigs I want to play. And that means financial recompense is little to none.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='keefbaker' timestamp='1453476780' post='2959855']
TBH if someone told me I had to play Mustang Sally in front of a bar full of drunk people.
[/quote]

Despite understanding (I think) your sentiment, it's probably worth pointing out that few things in a band are actually more fun than playing Mustang Sally to a pub full of drunk people.

Although Delilah comes close.

[JTUK]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1453476745' post='2959852']
I can see your point but I think that the issue is that in a very competitive live music scene, some very amateurish bands play for free or next to nothing and undercut much better bands that expect to be paid the going rate. All of this is against a background of pubs struggling to keep afloat and fewer opportunities for new bands.

As a result, punters get a poor experience and don't come again, possibly being put off the idea of watching live music and landlords stop putting bands on and go around telling other landlords that live music is a waste of time.

However, pubs that do their homework and book the right bands for the going rate still seem to be reasonable busy. But the market is being undermined by rubbish bands and naive landlords...!
[/quote]

And too many of them...

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1453476745' post='2959852']
But the market is being undermined by rubbish bands and naive landlords...!
[/quote]
[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1453478096' post='2959884']
And too many of them...
[/quote]

Yup - damn those clowns who like to play music who ... erm ... aren't us!

[Dad3353]

Not all 'free' (or 'low cost'...) bands are rubbish.
Just sayin'

(... and I've seen my share of rubbish 'pro' bands in my day, too. Not the majority, but they're out there, or they occasionally were when I was attending gigs...)

Edited January 22, 2016 by Dad3353

[Daz39]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1453478096' post='2959884']
And too many of them...
[/quote]


All bands have to start somewhere.
A similar argument persists with e.g. aviation and the publishing world (both of which I have had experience of), in which the common whine is that new entrants are making it a 'race to the bottom' by undervaluing themselves.

If you have a problem with others valuing themselves for less than yourself, you need to ensure you are properly differentiated to get the required attention. If these pubs want to pay peanuts they will get monkeys (as it were.)

You can't directly attribute falling pub numbers to rubbish bands. There's a lot more to do with social drinking culture, the spread of cheap supermarket booze and a million channels of drivel to watch on TV to stop people having a good reason to go to the pub.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Daz39

[Beedster]

[quote name='Daz39' timestamp='1453482571' post='2959967']
All bands have to start somewhere.
A similar argument persists with e.g. aviation and the publishing world (both of which I have had experience of), in which the common whine is that new entrants are making it a 'race to the bottom' by undervaluing themselves.

If you have a problem with others valuing themselves for less than yourself, you need to ensure you are properly differentiated to get the required attention. If these pubs want to pay peanuts they will get monkeys (as it were.)

You can't directly attribute falling pub numbers to rubbish bands. There's a lot more to do with social drinking culture, the spread of cheap supermarket booze and a million channels of drivel to watch on TV to stop people having a good reason to go to the pub.
[/quote]

+1, the old 'rubbish bands undercutting us' argument is utter crap, I've seen some excellent bands playing for free and some utterly crap ones charging a fortune. It's a free market chaps, everyone has to start somewhere, all bands have the right to charge what they want, and if you want to ensure that you can keep charging premium rates you need to ensure that you are substantially better than the 'rubbish bands' in question, and not simply expect a closed shop. Long may that be the case.

[JTUK]

Agree... ( I think cheap booze from a supermarket always was a bad idea..).
but everyone harps on about the heyday pub around here of 20 years plus ago...
but there was only one of them so the standard of band was high because bands
would travel an hr to play it.

Now the same town can have 9 bands on...or that is the worst number I've counted on
a saturday night.. so that will dilute those music goers.
And to fill those nights, all a pub has to do is event it.
No license, nothing..all on a whim.

Of course, some bands will be playing that maybe shouldn't or couldn't get a gig, but
these venues encourage them and then more pubs might look at them.
So the criteria is now, numbers, not quality.... and peanuts and monkees does apply,
but the LL is also now faced with an iffy act for £180 and take waht punters he gets, or
a much better band at £350... which he is nervous about.

My solution is to go in at £250 and you want that £100 bonus IF you earn it.. but you have to trust the
LL to be straight.
Or just play the places that know the value of a £350 band and keep the standard and criteria high.

On the other hand... pubs want to pay £100 and give you 10% of the bar bill...

I'm all for weeding out the chancers...be they bands or Pub landlords.

Edited January 22, 2016 by JTUK

[neepheid]

I presume this is yet another cover band only discussion?