JohnFitzgerald Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Did a gig last night in a place in Glasgow called King Tut's Wah Wah Hut. Always wanted to, it's quite an iconic venue. During the sound check the engineer asked if I wouldn't mind turning my backline down a little as it was messing with overall front of house levels. I totally understand why he'd want me to do that and promptly obliged. No problem at all. Here's the thing. I was one approx 1/4 on my master volume with the input stage just short of clipping and EQ flat. This was all into the 125w (no extension cab, so 8 omh load) of my Markbass 1 x 15 combo. It was certainly loud enough for me and I'm sure he did a grand job out front. Here's my question. Why is it we need amps of several hundred watts or even thousands and, more to the point, why do we need higher SPL from the speaker than that very modest amp will provide ? What is it that all you guys are doing that means you need such high sound levels ? I'm still not sure I get it, after all this time, sorry for being a bit dim here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) Some combination of: You play with a very clean sound and want plenty of headroom You use small cab(s) so need more amplifier power to compensate for the lower efficiency You feel safe knowing you've got the capacity to play 20-30% louder than you think/hope you will ever need to High power amps/cabs are relatively cheap so what the hell, why not Power requirements rise exponentially with volume Edited January 23, 2016 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) Similarly, I was asked to turn down my 15 watt 1x10" guitar combo in a 900-capacity rock-oriented venue (Studio 24 in Edinburgh), when I'd had the volume turned up to about 4 on the dial. I'm not sure what they do when people use the house backline 4x12" rig. There's a little basement venue I've played a few times which has a 50 watt 1x12" combo as the house bass amp, and I've been asked to turn that down too! You can get away with surprisingly little amp in situations with full PA, though less so when the PA is vocal-only or monitoring is inadequate. Edited January 23, 2016 by Beer of the Bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbowskill Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) Also from a vain visual point a 12" cab looks mighty crap compared to a 4x10-8x10 on stage. Always handy to have extra meat.........I've played many an average sized venue where the pa has turned out to be pants, when I've been told "we don't put the bass through the pa" ,ideal to have POWER ;-) Edited January 23, 2016 by danbowskill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Sods law as soon as you downsize, you get a gig without PA support In general though, the vast majority of my gigs, I COULD get along fine with a little combo, but I love acres of clean headroom, and it's nice to know that my rig can handle any gig that may arise, PA or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 [quote name='JohnFitzgerald' timestamp='1453570380' post='2960685'] Why is it we need amps of several hundred watts or even thousands and, more to the point, why do we need higher SPL from the speaker than that very modest amp will provide? [/quote]If you have proper PA support, you don't. For that matter with proper PA no guitar player needs more than a 50w 1x12 combo. Gear excess in the backline is the #1 complaint of every soundman I've ever talked with, from those in 100 seat clubs to those in 20,000 seat stadiums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1453575919' post='2960757'] Gear excess in the backline is the #1 complaint of every soundman I've ever talked with, from those in 100 seat clubs to those in 20,000 seat stadiums. [/quote] Yep, heard the same thing many times myself. "What did you bring that for ?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburstjazz1967 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Most bass player obsess over their £500 bass cabs yet the wedge infront of them is often far superior, a di box is all that is needed if there is a proper pa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Depends if you know what the P.A is... and do you ever ask or just turn up and take what comes. Personally, I don't..I ask what we have and a call to the sound man will probably do. What types/quality on monitors do we have.. what does the rider say..and can they actually provide to that spec..? What is the stage size, hall size..? Soundmen always like a signal and no stage sound..that is THEIR preference but bands shouldn't be bullied to going with that if it messes up their gig as there is nothing on stage and nobody can hear anything else. If the drummer doesn't have a fill or hefty monitor, he wont likely hear your bass with a small combo... so the band will have no backbone and be playing WITH each other. The reason why Engrs don't want stuff coming off the stage is because they can't mix it..but others will use it and work with it IF the band knows how to use dynamics. I use a backline to deal with the stage volume..and it helps if you have a mon engr.. and the engr has to deal with out front. He can't dictate what I do ...and ask me to turn down, and 99% of the time he wont. I'm not oblivious to his needs and he shouldn't be to the bands needs on stage so the size of the stage and quality of the P.A dictates what I'll take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 [quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453577608' post='2960774'] Most bass player obsess over their £500 bass cabs yet the wedge infront of them is often far superior, a di box is all that is needed if there is a proper pa! [/quote] Is it... how do you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburstjazz1967 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Because they use much better quality speakers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colgraff Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I would say “occasionally superior” rather than “often far superior.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburstjazz1967 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I've seen people arsing around with some cheap Laney cabs or similar when there was an active RCF £1300 monitor right in front of them, only the best of the best cabs could match that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twincam Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Not forgetting if using class d you need at least 4 times the power of a traditional amp valve, mosfet etc to get the "real" volume and "heft". Haha I'm joking of course or am I??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameronj279 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1453570944' post='2960692'] Some combination of: You play with a very clean sound and want plenty of headroom You feel safe knowing you've got the capacity to play 20-30% louder than you think/hope you will ever need to High power amps/cabs are relatively cheap so what the hell, why not [/quote] This is my reasoning for having a 900 watt amp. Plus it's the nicest sounding amp I've used and just happens to be pretty powerful...and portable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnFitzgerald Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 I did a gig recently with a friend's band - we did support with that particular band I was playing with that night. There was full PA support. I used his backline. 3 x Baer 1x12+1X6 cabs. Genz Benz amps totalling, something like 1.2kw. Apparently a single Baer cab wasn't enough, so he's kept adding them. I must be doing it wrong. In the band I was with last night, there's always house PA, it's just how it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnFitzgerald Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Forgot to add, I play with an absolutely clean sound. Zero dirt, grime, crunch or anything of that ilk in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 [quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453578148' post='2960783'] Because they use much better quality speakers[/quote] Do you ask..and if they told you would you know what they were..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahpook Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 [quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1453579054' post='2960805'] Not forgetting if using class d you need at least 4 times the power of a traditional amp valve, mosfet etc to get the "real" volume and "heft". Haha I'm joking of course or am I??? [/quote] Is it valve or solid-state humour ? Solid-state humour's just not as funny.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 [quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453578148' post='2960783'] Because they use much better quality speakers! [/quote]Wedge speakers tend to be full range and tend to be issued towards vocals. Not bad but far from ideal for bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowieBass Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 This reminds me of the times I used to hang out next to the sound engineer's desk at the gigs run by my local music collective - we had one band who prided themselves on being the town's loudest and in particular the bass was way over the top one particular night (and he wasn't about to turn his backline down either) so the engineer just killed everything coming through the PA for the bassist and it was still TOO LOUD... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I don't think I'm getting some of the posts here. Should I [i]not[/i] turn up to gigs with my bass head and cab? [size=4] [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburstjazz1967 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1453581635' post='2960848'] Do you ask..and if they told you would you know what they were..?? [/quote] I played the Robin in bilston a while ago, best bass sound ever in my monitor, far better than the £2000 worth of my rig that wad barely doing anything behind me. My old function band had an EV pa, the tops and bins could pump out much more smooth fat bass than a backline bass amp even with a 8x10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunburstjazz1967 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 [quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1453585827' post='2960899'] I don't think I'm getting some of the posts here. Should I [i]not[/i] turn up to gigs with my bass head and cab? [size=4] [/size] [/quote] The world is moving on, wireless in ears or a high end stage monitor and pro quality pa speakers at pub band money available so there is no reason why you need a cab really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Too much back line volume kills the FOH sound, I use IEM's where possible... No more volume issues👍 I wonder whether in the future back line might become a thing of the past Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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