"Could you turn your backline down a bit ? "

[mrtcat]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1453723214' post='2962068']


I'll call them as the venue will likely have booked the P.A but we will have supplied a basic spec and stage plan.
This is just basics. If outdoor we will want to know about power runs as well.
Depends who is running the gig...they may not know about all this stuff so we've got involved.

Any wedding in the garden with catering supplied will probably involve a genie..

So yes, after the power and stage etc etc ... you'll want to know what P.A is supplied
and how many people are expected.

Do you want the P.A to hit the back of the tent for a 1000 people etc..

It is no good booking a 16k P.A if it flattens the power...and the hire company
might send that as it was already loaded back from another gig

So after all that... asking about the monitoring is pretty small detail.

It is all very well accepting a P.A is supplied but what P.A.
If it is less than 6k..we could cobble together that anyway...
but you still have to 'charge' £250 for that to the gig.. as that will involve
a van etc etc ..
Any for that, I know the bass isn't going anywhere near monitors...
[/quote]

Do you have a band website or fb page. We are growing as a band but still clearly a way behind you judging by the gigs you are doing. It be great to see more about your band.

[Guest bassman7755]

Its all a bit weird to me that people expend so much energy on ins outs of their on stage sound to the extent that a potentially sub par "tone" from a wedge is a major problem. I focus on whether I can hear what I'm doing clearly and the quality of the sound to the audience. If anything I'd prefer a monitor sound that was bit light in the lows because all I need it for is knowing what note I'm playing.

Edited January 25, 2016 by bassman7755

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1453734983' post='2962251']


Do you have a band website or fb page. We are growing as a band but still clearly a way behind you judging by the gigs you are doing. It be great to see more about your band.
[/quote]

JT's band are called The Crossfire based in Kent I believe?

[sykilz]

In the world of grimy pub rock, with a band that has a vocal only p.a. then you need something to be heard above the drums, as they're the ' constant' , maybe a 1x15 with 125watts would be enough....who knows....but in my experience a 4x10 is your best bet to get a decent thump going, in any venue,and my amp is a TC, so puts approx 250 'actual' watts into my 4 ohm cab , although usually I'm below half volume on the dial.

[bigjohn]

Power required is determined by the frequencies and tone you want.

I play and rehearse with the same rig. A 600W poweramp into a Barefaced Compact. I don't think this is too loud or over-powered. Since I've had my current rig, I've never been asked to turn down by soundmen.

I play a Precision with the tone rolled off and a reasonably flat EQ. The gain on the poweramp is usually set to around 25%, which equates to round about the same volume level as an acoustic drum kit being played with reasonable vigour. 35%-40% and there's some distortion I don't want.

I've played with 50W amps with our drummer and been fine, but that requires high mids and treble to cut through and thus changes our sound. Our rhythm guitar occupies a lot of that space.

[LayDownThaFunk]

Ah, I see this has turned into another covers band thread.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453586659' post='2960909']
I played the Robin in bilston a while ago, best bass sound ever in my monitor, far better than the £2000 worth of my rig that wad barely doing anything behind me. My old function band had an EV pa, the tops and bins could pump out much more smooth fat bass than a backline bass amp even with a 8x10.
[/quote]

Ahhh! A 8x10... now i see your problem...

[Ghost_Bass]

Now (a bit more) serious. I don't count on wedges for my bass monitoring. I don't even use the suplied DI as my amp's DI are professional grade.
(Funny story, the only time i was asked to use the company's DI it was a behringer BSS-clone. A clueless tech insisted that the DI in my Thunderfunk was causing a hum and the behringer didn't, i tried to point out to him that he had the -10dB pad active on the DI and the humm was still there, only lower volume. He ended up finding out that a faulty line on the multipar was the culprit. )

My gear plays at any volume the venue needs, that's why we have volume knobs. If asked to turn up/down by any tech i'll gladly do it. I never ask bass on my wedge because most of the times it messes with my hearing of the rest of the band. For me is bass behind me, on my rig, vocals, kick drum and not very often guitar on the wedge.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1453744334' post='2962380']
Now (a bit more) serious. I don't count on wedges for my bass monitoring. I don't even use the suplied DI as my amp's DI are professional grade.
[/quote]

Here's your first problem. Any sound tech worth their salt would never use an onboard DI. The amp dies, so does all direct signal to the desk. Chance of a DI box failing? - very low in comparison.

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='LayDownThaFunk' timestamp='1453740764' post='2962334']
Ah, I see this has turned into another covers band thread.
[/quote]

I disagree, regarding covers bands most have their own pa and would/should have the appropriate kit, this topic concerns your typical multi band show be they covers or original bands imo?

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453736777' post='2962281']


JT's band are called The Crossfire based in Kent I believe?
[/quote]

I see he is no longer in that band but is in the gallery on their website, complete with music stands!

Any links to your new band please JTUK?

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453759718' post='2962592']
Any links to your new band please JTUK?
[/quote]

Did he get booted for causing the band much embarrassment with sound guys? Or was the band's monitoring solution not up to spec?

[tauzero]

[quote name='LayDownThaFunk' timestamp='1453740764' post='2962334']
Ah, I see this has turned into another covers band thread.
[/quote]

Not really, I play in a fairly typical pub covers band and it's utterly irrelevant to me because we use backline and vocal PA, not full band through the PA, except for the very occasional occasions where there's an in-house PA. So the reason I have a 900W amp and speakers that can handle about 2/3 of that is that I'm not going to have to worry about whether I've got enough power to do some venue or other.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1453752054' post='2962493']
Here's your first problem. Any sound tech worth their salt would never use an onboard DI. The amp dies, so does all direct signal to the desk. Chance of a DI box failing? - very low in comparison.
[/quote]

... but they would still be happy to mic up a guitarist using a board of dodgy old pedals and a valve amp with a vastly higher probability of kit failure in the signal chain ??, makes no sense whatsoever. About the lamest excuse for not wanting to take an amp output I've ever heard (and not one I've come across in real life).

Edited January 26, 2016 by bassman7755

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1453760125' post='2962598']


Did he get booted for causing the band much embarrassment with sound guys? Or was the band's monitoring solution not up to spec?
[/quote]

Found the new band "Grand Slam JT's Allstars" can't find a website or anything though just dates for the windmill and the tickled trout.

Any chance of some links JT?

Edited January 26, 2016 by sunburstjazz1967

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1453789425' post='2962686']


... but they would still be happy to mic up a guitarist using a board of dodgy old pedals and a valve amp with a vastly higher probability of kit failure in the signal chain ??, makes no sense whatsoever. About the lamest excuse for not wanting to take an amp output I've ever heard (and not one I've come across in real life).
[/quote]

If you are sending your bass signal pre eq the first part of your post is irrelevant as their is a requirement for the guitarists amp sound to be captured, not so with a pre eq di.

[EBS_freak]

Again, sound guys will want pre eq. With di before amp, they know exactly what they are getting - as opposed to a bass player sending "their tone" with a shed load of bass which is just going to be mud through foh.

[Phil Starr]

We do the usual thing, backline set up to match the drums with vocal only through the PA and monitors. It works and everyone understands it. I've given up on trying to get everyone to turn down to give us a cleaner sound but one local band uses an electronic kit and no backline. Even their monitors are at stunningly low levels, standing behind them it sounds like they are practising acoustically, you'd have no trouble hearing yourself talking at a normal speaking volume. Out front they sound very much like any other pub band, though with a noticeably cleaner vocal sound. That has to be down to a mixture of better singing because they can actually hear themselves, and a lack of bleed from the instruments into the vocal mics.

To me it seemed weird having such a low level but I'm sure you'd learn to get used to it, obviously they could turn the monitors up to any level they wanted. You'd be stuck with the electronic kit of course. I'd find it hard to develop the energy to really perform at really quiet levels but it'd be great to look after your hearing like that.

People tend to brand different approaches 'right' or 'wrong'. I don't think that's fair, each approach has advantages and disadvantages though extreme volumes on stage make it all but impossible to get a really clean sound. It's possible to get a really poor sound whatever system you go for though, the problem is usually the squishy organic bit between the ears.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1453789425' post='2962686']


... but they would still be happy to mic up a guitarist using a board of dodgy old pedals and a valve amp with a vastly higher probability of kit failure in the signal chain ??, makes no sense whatsoever. About the lamest excuse for not wanting to take an amp output I've ever heard (and not one I've come across in real life).
[/quote]

In any mission critical gig, it will be normal. I'm not talking your average originals venue where a guys DI box is likely to go missing. I played on a live TV broadcast and they were insistent that I was pre amp DI - and to be honest, it's a good move. I don't want to look like the dick making no noise when I should be because my amp has gone down.

As for the guitarist, well, as you say, their signal chain is more complex - but that's why if you watch any big gigs, they have two heads ready to switch should anything happen to the primary head. Don't even have to move the mic off the cab.

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1453794067' post='2962708']


Found the new band "Grand Slam JT's Allstars" can't find a website or anything though just dates for the windmill and the tickled trout.

Any chance of some links JT?
[/quote]

I have no idea why I find this post so funny

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1453795364' post='2962719']
We do the usual thing, backline set up to match the drums with vocal only through the PA and monitors. It works and everyone understands it. I've given up on trying to get everyone to turn down to give us a cleaner sound but one local band uses an electronic kit and no backline. Even their monitors are at stunningly low levels, standing behind them it sounds like they are practising acoustically, you'd have no trouble hearing yourself talking at a normal speaking volume. Out front they sound very much like any other pub band, though with a noticeably cleaner vocal sound. That has to be down to a mixture of better singing because they can actually hear themselves, and a lack of bleed from the instruments into the vocal mics.

To me it seemed weird having such a low level but I'm sure you'd learn to get used to it, obviously they could turn the monitors up to any level they wanted. You'd be stuck with the electronic kit of course. I'd find it hard to develop the energy to really perform at really quiet levels but it'd be great to look after your hearing like that.

People tend to brand different approaches 'right' or 'wrong'. I don't think that's fair, each approach has advantages and disadvantages though extreme volumes on stage make it all but impossible to get a really clean sound. It's possible to get a really poor sound whatever system you go for though, the problem is usually the squishy organic bit between the ears.
[/quote]

Good post. Your point about developing energy is very valid. Can't get into a gig when a drummer is being limp waisted!

One thing which I don't think has been mentioned - in terms of keeping things quiet on stage and letting the PA do the work... How many amateur bands realistically carry around a PA that can support that. Nobody wants to invest or carry the thing!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1453795580' post='2962723']
I have no idea why I find this post so funny
[/quote]

Same. Although shouldn't it be JT's Grand Slam Allstars? Or am I missing something? Is it Yoda speak or something?

Anyway, I'll be sure to phone up The Tickled Trout to establish what PA and monitoring facilities they have. Will try and establish the natural resonance of the hall there that I'll be playing in too.

Edited January 26, 2016 by EBS_freak

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1453795580' post='2962723']


I have no idea why I find this post so funny
[/quote]

I don't know have I missed something?

[chris_b]

I don't do multiband gigs so maybe my world is different to yours, but I don't understand all the "engineers want this" and "engineers want that".

I only get FOH occasionally in functions and festivals and the guys are usually good. They're flexible, will let me DI from the amp, with a post signal and will talk to me about the sound I want. I've never been dictated to about "what my sound should be".

[EBS_freak]

I guess you are questioning my statement above. In reality, I guess a lot go for the simple life - OK, they'll take your DI from your head, they take your DI as pre/post eq. If they have a problem working with what they get... and I don't suppose they care too much - it depends upon the gig. Does a function band/original band gig really matter? I'm sure the audience at the Tickled Trout won't care a hoot where the DI comes from. I'm sure any sound guy working there (if they have any) will care either. The number one is getting paid and going home.

There's a load of BS in this game and the sound engineers have to be pros at dealing with it. The long standing joke of "make this change to the monitor mix for me please" - sound guy does nothing - "yeah, that's great now, thanks". Sometimes its not worth their while to even bother saying anything to the band in order to avoid any conflicts.

On the other end of the spectrum, a television/radio broadcast/live recording, I tell you there will be a load of sound guys that will insist on external, isolated DIs (not just separated, isolated in the fact they won't hum, like many amps do), so they have the cleanest unadulterated signal to work with, and then blend with a mic on the cab if the player is a big fx person. Also, the DI output from heads can very, with many being hotter than ideal. A known DI box takes away this unknown - nobody wants to start messing around with inline attenuators to tame a hot DI feed. There's a reason that Avalons grace many a stage - although in my opinion, super expensive DIs for live are a bit pointless as the signal is pushed and pulled a mile, compressed, EQed from their original starting point - although that source does need to be clean (free from hum) and at an optimum level when fed into the preamps of the desk.

Edited January 26, 2016 by EBS_freak