300 watts? 500 watts? 900 watts? it doesn't matter.

[mcnach]

Just add more speakers!

End of story.

I just wanted to share a little experience I had tonight... which even 'though I knew to be true, I hadn't really compared first hand like I did today.

Location: large rehearsal room with a full band (RATM covers, loud).

Last week I used 2x TKS S112 speakers and the Streamliner 900. Each speaker is 8 ohm, rated up to 250W, so 4 ohm load. Streamliner can output 900W into 4 ohm. So I did not push it too hard just in case, but the two cabs sounded good yet it was clear they would not cut it in anything but small gigs or for onstage monitoring. They're very small and light cabs, so it would not be fair to ask too much of them. They sound great, to me, without a huge amount of bottom end compared to other cabs.

Today I had another two of those cabs, and an additional amp: a MarkBass Little Mark III (LM3) rated at 500W into 4 ohm or 300W into 8 ohm.

The speakers were stacked and connected as two pairs, each in parallel (4 ohms each), connected in series (total 8ohm).

Streamliner, max ~500-600W into 8ohm... LOUD beast. So much louder than into two speakers. Louder and deeper. I was still cutting down bass as I often do with the Streamliner. Despite going into 8ohm instead of 4ohm, adding the extra two speakers made the rig sound a lot louder. It wasn't a matter of 'I think it's louder'. No. It was very much louder.

Then I took the LM3... 300W into 8ohm. LOUD beast.
Seriously, I cannot really say which one gets louder, the Streamliner of the MarkBass... but I felt the MarkBass was 'heftier' and could get louder than the Streamliner. Not so much into two speakers... but into four, either amp seemed just as loud, so any difference must not be that big. Which is what you expect, really... but often a lot of us think "oh, I'll get the 800W amp over the 500W because it'll get louder and I might need that sometime". Nah. Whether it's 300W or 600W... get the amp that sounds best, and figure out the best cab solution for you. If you need louder, just find a way to add more cabs.

[discreet]

Yes... Did a gig on Saturday and the supplied bass amp turned out to be a Fender Rumble 500 combo, which I believe runs at around 350 watts without an 8ohm extension cab.

Had no expectations about it and was quite surprised to find it was really bloody loud at around 40% on the master. Amazingly hefty sound, too. And lightweight!

We need to understand that an amp's wattage rating is really no indication of its perceived 'loudness'.

[mcnach]

[No lust in Jazz]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1454372659' post='2969193']
Yes... Did a gig on Saturday and the supplied bass amp turned out to be a Fender Rumble 500 combo, which I believe runs at around 350 watts without an 8ohm extension cab.

Had no expectations about it and was quite surprised to find it was really bloody loud at around 40% on the master. Amazingly hefty sound, too. And lightweight!

We need to understand that an amp's wattage rating is really no indication of its perceived 'loudness'.
[/quote]

Ah the Fender Rumble Combo - I rehearsed with a 100w one of these for months (supplied by the rehearsal room) it was never out of puff - they traded 'up' to an Ampeg and I had to start taking my own gear again.

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1454371375' post='2969176']
Last week I used 2x TKS S112 speakers and the Streamliner 900. Each speaker is 8 ohm, rated up to 250W, so 4 ohm load. Streamliner can output 900W into 4 ohm. So I did not push it too hard just in case, but the two cabs sounded good yet it was clear they would not cut it in anything but small gigs or for onstage monitoring. [/quote]


I can't imagine how loud you guys play if 2 X S112s will only work for small gigs or onstage monitoring!?

Bet the 4 together sound amazing though!!

[stoo]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1454371375' post='2969176']
Just add more speakers!

End of story.
[/quote]

Or, presumably, just use speakers with more displacement?

TKS quote[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size=3] 237cc [/size][/font]compared to 550cc for a Barefaced 12XN550 - so assuming amp power isn't the limiting factor, you could get more volume out of 2 barefaced 12s than 4 TKS 12s.

I guess the 4x TKS 12 would have a big advantage in terms of sensitivity though, so could be better suited if a bigger amp wasn't an option.

That said - in the unlikely event I ever needed more volume out of my rig (GK MB500 + 2x Big Baby 2) I'd much prefer to upgrade the amp to an MB800 than to have to carry 4 cabs around instead!

[Lozz196]

Yep, more volume needed, more cabs - if possible.

[discreet]

[quote name='stoo' timestamp='1454402428' post='2969287']
Or, presumably, just use speakers with more displacement? ...in the unlikely event I ever needed more volume out of my rig (GK MB500 + 2x Big Baby 2) I'd much prefer to upgrade the amp to an MB800 than to have to carry 4 cabs around instead!
[/quote]

This. It's a major pain to carry multiple cabs around just so you can be too loud. I'd rather invest in a portable combo or one-cab solution that is going to be loud enough and have enough headroom for any situation... though I can't imagine why anyone would need more than one BB2! Apart from the look of the thing, of course...

Edited February 2, 2016 by discreet

[stevie]

So now you know why a 100 watt Marshall bass head and 2 4x12 100 watt cabinets (containing drivers with virtually no xmax) could blow your socks off in the old days.

Edited February 2, 2016 by stevie

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='stoo' timestamp='1454402428' post='2969287']
Or, presumably, just use speakers with more displacement?

TKS quote[font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=3] 237cc [/size][/font]compared to 550cc for a Barefaced 12XN550
[/quote]

Just to put this in perspective, I calculated that my old peavey 4x10 and 1x15 stack had a combined displacement of around 570cc so it shows how much technology has marched on that one or two of these very small and light cabs can match a monster stack of yore (given sufficient amplifier grunt of course).

Edited February 2, 2016 by bassman7755

[Musicman20]

Absolutely. To be fair, no matter what amp I've used/borrowed/bought etc, I've never hit the limits as I'm too sensible to try pushing it. I used to practice in a room in Newcastle with a 4 piece punk band and the Ampeg combo they had in the room was way loud enough. It was more than likely 200W, 1x15. I bet that Ray kills through those setups. One thing to test is that the Markbass amps have the classic 'omg this is loud' when you use the master vol, but don't actually get much louder past half way. The Genz is the opposite, and uses the entire dial to gradually raise the volume up to full tilt. I owned a LM3 some time back and it was great though.

[stoo]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1454406419' post='2969333']
This. It's a major pain to carry multiple cabs around just so you can be too loud. I'd rather invest in a portable combo or one-cab solution that is going to be loud enough and have enough headroom for any situation... though I can't imagine why anyone would need more than one BB2! Apart from the look of the thing, of course...
[/quote]

Partly for height - the place we normally play at has a fairly cramped stage and I usually end up stood very close to my amp. Partly so I could use them as a stereo pair of PA cabs if need be (I've top hats for pole mounts in mine)

But mostly - yeah, it's so I've got the right ratio of screen to speakers for my telly.


[url="http://s10.photobucket.com/user/scrapperstoo/media/guitars/tv_zpsmthkhuhy.jpg.html"][/url]

[Guinness21]

I don't disagree with you, but I just recently bought a Bergantino CN212 and a 500w head. With this set up I can now move everything from the car into the venue, without needing to faff with the likes of trolleys. If I had the money, the storage, etc. I'd maybe go buy another CN212 - but I don't. This cab is the best cab for me, it's taller than most 4x10's and the sound dispersion is great. If I always had somebody to help me move my gear I might have bought something big like a Bergantino NV610T but I don't, so this was the option for me.

[mcnach]

[quote name='stoo' timestamp='1454402428' post='2969287']
Or, presumably, just use speakers with more displacement?
[/quote]

yes, but I'm talking about general:

- oh, I'm not loud enough, I'll get a more powerful amp.

we hear that a lot. And adding more of the same speakers has a much larger effect than most realise. That was the point.


[quote name='stoo' timestamp='1454402428' post='2969287']
That said - in the unlikely event I ever needed more volume out of my rig (GK MB500 + 2x Big Baby 2) I'd much prefer to upgrade the amp to an MB800 than to have to carry 4 cabs around instead!
[/quote]

Those 4 S112 speakers are *tiny*, look at them. Four of them don't take more room than 2x BB2.

Look, I've done the Barefaced Compact + BB2 already. It certainly works and it is not big or heavy. But these are much more easy to carry and store, for me (YMMV). More importantly, I actually prefer their sound too.

Anyway, my point was not finding out which speakers are most efficient... just that you get more volume by adding another of your existing speakers than by getting an amp with twice the power (at best).

[mcnach]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1454410472' post='2969393']
Absolutely. To be fair, no matter what amp I've used/borrowed/bought etc, I've never hit the limits as I'm too sensible to try pushing it. I used to practice in a room in Newcastle with a 4 piece punk band and the Ampeg combo they had in the room was way loud enough. It was more than likely 200W, 1x15. I bet that Ray kills through those setups. One thing to test is that the Markbass amps have the classic 'omg this is loud' when you use the master vol, but don't actually get much louder past half way. The Genz is the opposite, and uses the entire dial to gradually raise the volume up to full tilt. I owned a LM3 some time back and it was great though.
[/quote]

The LM3 continued to get louder way past noon. The Streamliner did not, actually.
On my CMD121P combo (LM3 head) it's as you say... anything beyond half-way doesn't get any louder, but that's not what I heard yesterday. The LM3 I own is a 2009 model, while the combo is a 2013, so they use different power amps... not sure if that plays a role...

[mcnach]

[quote name='stoo' timestamp='1454410753' post='2969396']
Partly for height - the place we normally play at has a fairly cramped stage and I usually end up stood very close to my amp. Partly so I could use them as a stereo pair of PA cabs if need be (I've top hats for pole mounts in mine)

But mostly - yeah, it's so I've got the right ratio of screen to speakers for my telly.


[url="http://s10.photobucket.com/user/scrapperstoo/media/guitars/tv_zpsmthkhuhy.jpg.html"][/url]
[/quote]


Yeah... two reasons I liked using two BF cabs even if I did not need the volume:

1) height. I hear it better. No need to be loud just because you can

2) it prevents any temptation from others to set up a small but piercingly loud guitar amp on top of mine... which will ensure it deafens me while making it hard for me to hear myself unless I turn up too loud and spoiling the whole onstage sound for everybody... Yes, it happened. Yes I tell them. Yes they fix it. But I find it's easier to remove temptation and nobody gets hurt that way

[mcnach]

[quote name='Guinness21' timestamp='1454412648' post='2969420']
I don't disagree with you, but I just recently bought a Bergantino CN212 and a 500w head. With this set up I can now move everything from the car into the venue, without needing to faff with the likes of trolleys. If I had the money, the storage, etc. I'd maybe go buy another CN212 - but I don't. This cab is the best cab for me, it's taller than most 4x10's and the sound dispersion is great. If I always had somebody to help me move my gear I might have bought something big like a Bergantino NV610T but I don't, so this was the option for me.
[/quote]

and that's cool. we have different preferences and what is comfy for me is not for you and viceversa

note: I'm not likely to use 4 cabs very often... 2 of those small ones work for 80-90% of what I do.

[chris_b]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1454407996' post='2969353']
So now you know why a 100 watt Marshall bass head and 2 4x12 100 watt cabinets (containing drivers with virtually no xmax) could blow your socks off in the old days.
[/quote]

100watt Marshall's were originally sold with 50 watt 412 cabs. That's 12 1/2 watts per speaker!!

We live in another (so much better) world these days.

[chris_b]

Adding speakers for extra volume should always be the first option, and a massive added benefit is the improvement in your tone when you have more cones working for you. That's why it makes no sense to paint yourself into a corner with small 4 ohm cabs.

I used to run 1, 2 or 3 Bergantino AE112 cabs, depending on the gigs. Same tone but adjusted to the volume of the band. Then I moved to a CN212 with an additional AE112. These days I'm using 1 or 2 BF Super Compacts. I'm happy to say that 2 SC's are easily matching the volume I got with the 3 x 12 rigs.

I've got 2 2ohm amps so I wouldn't rule out 3 SC's in the future.

[stoo]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1454415802' post='2969465']
yes, but I'm talking about general:

- oh, I'm not loud enough, I'll get a more powerful amp.

we hear that a lot. And adding more of the same speakers has a much larger effect than most realise. That was the point.




Those 4 S112 speakers are *tiny*, look at them. Four of them don't take more room than 2x BB2.

Look, I've done the Barefaced Compact + BB2 already. It certainly works and it is not big or heavy. But these are much more easy to carry and store, for me (YMMV). More importantly, I actually prefer their sound too.

Anyway, my point was not finding out which speakers are most efficient... just that you get more volume by adding another of your existing speakers than by getting an amp with twice the power (at best).
[/quote]

Fair shout - what works for me is 2 cabs I can carry in one load with bass + amp in the gig bag on my back, but to each their own and all that

[RandomBass]

Now, where's that thread where the chap was building a 4x15 cab...?

[chris_b]

[quote name='stoo' timestamp='1454410753' post='2969396']
Partly for height - the place we normally play at has a fairly cramped stage and I usually end up stood very close to my amp. Partly so I could use them as a stereo pair of PA cabs if need be (I've top hats for pole mounts in mine)

But mostly - yeah, it's so I've got the right ratio of screen to speakers for my telly.


[url="http://s10.photobucket.com/user/scrapperstoo/media/guitars/tv_zpsmthkhuhy.jpg.html"][/url]
[/quote]

Howlin Wolf at 500 watts. . . . bloody perfect.

[mcnach]

[quote name='stoo' timestamp='1454417676' post='2969500']
Fair shout - what works for me is 2 cabs I can carry in one load with bass + amp in the gig bag on my back, but to each their own and all that
[/quote]

I should have added earlier perhaps that with me being a short-arse, having those 4 speakers behind me it's probably a more similar experience to having an 8x10 for others less vertically-challenged

[DeezerButler]

More speakers.... more volume....

Sorry for the tilted pics...

Edited February 2, 2016 by DeezerButler

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='RandomBass' timestamp='1454419100' post='2969524']
Now, where's that thread where the chap was building a 4x15 cab...?
[/quote]

Do you mean 8x15?! [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/259954-custom-8x15-bass-cabinet/page__st__240__p__2823274__hl__8x15__fromsearch__1#entry2823274"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/259954-custom-8x15-bass-cabinet/page__st__240__p__2823274__hl__8x15__fromsearch__1#entry2823274[/url]