What counts as original?

[Hutton]

After posting in 'repair and technical' a question has arisen in my mind. How much originality is required before a bass loses value? For example should any value be lost if the original pots are no longer fitted? What about the jack socket or the odd bridge saddle or pickup screws? Are these items essential to the value of the bass?

[LayDownThaFunk]

In some people's eyes, yes.

[warwickhunt]

I suppose there's a sliding scale whereby if 'everything' is as it was when manufactured and nothing has been swapped out even for OEM parts then that is the pinnacle, after which any replacement affects value, gradually shedding parts that you'd anticipate might wear out, till the point where you have refinished/modded/replaced main instrument parts and the value is significantly affected. There will come a point where replacing parts might make something a better player/more useable and the value might be slightly higher than if it were stock but unuseable.

[RhysP]

I would say that it depends on if the instrument is a sought after vintage one or not.
If you are selling, for example, a pre CBS Fender then it will be more valuable the more original it is.
With new basses it's less of an issue, as certain upgrades (Better pots/wiring, upgraded pickups & bridge) can sometimes make the bass more desirable than the stock version.

Edited February 13, 2016 by RhysP

[Dad3353]

I don't know how many 4 1/2 litre turbo Bentleys or Austin 7s still have their original tyres. For a museum curator, there may be an importance, and a bass that's as original as Trigger's broom would be the other extreme, but worn parts need replacing with suitable, working parts or the instrument needs putting in a glass case. One can't have it both ways, and not all that is old and original retains its value. An original 1lb of pork sausages, in original wrapper..? I think not. Anyone overly concerned about such details is not looking for a bass to play, but an investment which will increase in value. That's speculation, not bass-playing. A worthwhile occupation for some, of course; not for many, I'd suggest.

[Hutton]

This arose because the volume pot on my 81 precision needed to be replaced. If a component like a pot wears out to the extent that it needs replaced should that affect the value. There is no choice about whether or not to replace. Why should a bass which has had the good fortune not to need a replacement pot be more valuable?

[Hutton]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1455381527' post='2978665']
I don't know how many 4 1/2 litre turbo Bentleys or Austin 7s still have their original tyres. For a museum curator, there may be an importance, and a bass that's as original as Trigger's broom would be the other extreme, but worn parts need replacing with suitable, working parts or the instrument needs putting in a glass case. One can't have it both ways, and not all that is old and original retains its value. An original 1lb of pork sausages, in original wrapper..? I think not. Anyone overly concerned about such details is not looking for a bass to play, but an investment which will increase in value. That's speculation, not bass-playing. A worthwhile occupation for some, of course; not for many, I'd suggest.
[/quote]

Exactly!

[hubrad]

Ah-hah.. this makes more clarity in your other thread.. probably the original pot was included when you bought it as some folks like to have the original (albeit knackered!) parts, even though it's unusable. Some folks will pay more for a thing if it still has the box, even though it's of no practical value.
Unless it was a serious collectors piece, I really wouldn't be bothered myself. I'd be wanting the one with the working volume pot.
Parallel to this, I'm sure I saw some mad Ebay item a while back of someone selling an original 1960s Fender P pot for some insane amount of money. Just WHY???

[4stringslow]

There are bass players and there are bass collectors/investors. Nowt wrong with either but they won't have much mutual understanding. I guess the ultimate original bass would be one still in its unopened shipping box but as we all know, things start to wear as soon as they are used, so whenever 'originality' is being discussed (or when money is changing hands) a clear definition of what it means - to all parties - would seem essential.

http://youtu.be/BUl6PooveJE

[Naetharu]

I guess a bass is original iff everything about it is so. Otherwise, it'd be a case of original with the following exceptions...

As to how much that matters, as stated above that will come down to the individual buyer and what they are looking for. I can imagine myself being tempted to pick up an early Fender one day. If I did, it would be with a view to using it rather than hanging it on the wall and so a certain degree of replacement parts and wear and tear would be fine.

On the other hand, if I wanted one as an investment/decoration I'd no doubt be looking for everything original down to the fret wire and pots.

Also, I'd be willing and expect to pay far more for something that had 100% original parts in working order than I would for something with even reasonably minor alterations.

[Hutton]

[quote name='hubrad' timestamp='1455384369' post='2978692']
Ah-hah.. this makes more clarity in your other thread.. probably the original pot was included when you bought it as some folks like to have the original (albeit knackered!) parts, even though it's unusable. Some folks will pay more for a thing if it still has the box, even though it's of no practical value.
Unless it was a serious collectors piece, I really wouldn't be bothered myself. I'd be wanting the one with the working volume pot.
Parallel to this, I'm sure I saw some mad Ebay item a while back of someone selling an original 1960s Fender P pot for some insane amount of money. Just WHY???
[/quote]

I do have the original knackered pot. I would rather have a replacement pot than go to all the hassle of getting a pot refurbished just to retain value. Why in all seriousness should a bass be worth any less because a small worn out electrical component is replaced?

[RhysP]

[quote name='Hutton' timestamp='1455385217' post='2978702']
I do have the original knackered pot. I would rather have a replacement pot than go to all the hassle of getting a pot refurbished just to retain value. Why in all seriousness should a bass be worth any less because a small worn out electrical component is replaced?
[/quote]

It's an '81 - a new pot isn't going to effect the value compared to something like a '50s Precision.

Even having the original pot refurbished would effect the value if you're the sort of person that worries about these things. That's just the way it is when you get involved with buying & selling vintage instruments.

[Old Man Riva]

[quote name='Hutton' timestamp='1455385217' post='2978702']


I do have the original knackered pot. I would rather have a replacement pot than go to all the hassle of getting a pot refurbished just to retain value. Why in all seriousness should a bass be worth any less because a small worn out electrical component is replaced?
[/quote]
Why should a toy car be worth more if it's still in its original box? It's just the way it is..

In your case, if it doesn't bother you (and you're not thinking about future resale value - in the much longer term at least) chuck the knackered component in the bin, replace it and have fun playing the bass...

[Dad3353]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1455391907' post='2978784']
Not sure about the tyre analogy as it would be the equivalent of strings which invariably do get changed.
[/quote]

What..? And lose all of that invaluable 'mojo'..? Surely 'original strings' on a historic instrument would vastly increase its perceived worth..? No..? OK then, maybe I'll change mine one day.
What about the tax disc, then..? Should that be original, too, to retain the 'original' epithet..? A rocker cover gasket..? An exhaust system..? A broom handle..? What possible 'value' could originality for its own sake have..? I can understand with hand-wound p/us, or the original nitro finish, but pots..? Do they have any impact at all on the sound, comparing old ones to new..? I'd say not. Caps, now, that's different. Bumblebees or nothing..! (Well, OK; original Russian oil-filled paper and wax, for vintage tone...). A vintage valve amp with old, exploding filter caps is just a paperweight if it can't be safely plugged in. How to replace those caps, and still retain the 'Reeves' blue blob..? Why should one even bother, except as a museum piece..?

Edited February 13, 2016 by Dad3353

[Luulox]

Depends who's selling it

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1455392594' post='2978797']


What..? And lose all of that invaluable 'mojo'..? Surely 'original strings' on a historic instrument would vastly increase its perceived worth..? No..? OK then, maybe I'll change mine one day.
What about the tax disc, then..? Should that be original, too, to retain the 'original' epithet..? A rocker cover gasket..? An exhaust system..? A broom handle..? What possible 'value' could originality for its own sake have..? I can understand with hand-wound p/us, or the original nitro finish, but pots..? Do they have any impact at all on the sound, comparing old ones to new..? I'd say not. Caps, now, that's different. Bumblebees or nothing..! (Well, OK; original Russian oil-filled paper and wax, for vintage tone...). A vintage valve amp with old, exploding filter caps is just a paperweight if it can't be safely plugged in. How to replace those caps, and still retain the 'Reeves' blue blob..? Why should one even bother, except as a museum piece..?
[/quote]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic but capacitor type/construction has zero effect on tone.

Yes, sometimes instruments need parts replaced but you should bear in mind that collectors value things that do not necessarily make rational sense.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1455412931' post='2978979']
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic...
[/quote]

Be sure; be very sure.

...

Edited February 14, 2016 by Dad3353

[Truckstop]

An Austin 7 with original tyres would be worth a lot more than one that was exactly the same but had changed tyres.

Same goes for all engine parts. Just because it doesn't affect the performance of the vehicle doesn't matter, you want a guarantee that the vehicle has not been used since it was built.

The implication of originality is that no-one has used the thing! If you're in the market for an Austin 7, one that is 100% original is obviously going to be much more desirable and valuable.

Same goes for basses. If you've got an instrument that is 100% original compared to one that is 99% original, then the former will be worth more.

From a collecting point of view, of course.

[Dad3353]

This ^^ would imply that, to retain this extra 'value', one wouldn't, oneself, be using the thing, either. That's the 'museum curator' model (which has its own perspective...). The extra 'value' is dissipated as soon as the thing is actually used, and can never be recaptured, by definition. New-unused only occurs once, hence the premium in New Old Stock (NOS...). Is anything worth the difference..? That is a huge variable.

[Hutton]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1455439203' post='2979014']
This ^^ would imply that, to retain this extra 'value', one wouldn't, oneself, be using the thing, either. That's the 'museum curator' model (which has its own perspective...). The extra 'value' is dissipated as soon as the thing is actually used, and can never be recaptured, by definition. New-unused only occurs once, hence the premium in New Old Stock (NOS...). Is anything worth the difference..? That is a huge variable.
[/quote]

Once again - Exactly!

[gareth]

[quote name='Luulox' timestamp='1455393288' post='2978813']
Depends who's selling it
[/quote] + 1

[Macker5]

Pots are a wear item and can / will fail. An American dealer told me he would 'devalue' a 1961 Precision with both pots changed by £225. I wouldn't worry about a changed pot as long as the bass plays and sounds great!

[cybertect]

[quote name='Macker5' timestamp='1455470837' post='2979373']
Pots are a wear item and can / will fail. An American dealer told me he would 'devalue' a 1961 Precision with both pots changed by £225. I wouldn't worry about a changed pot as long as the bass plays and sounds great!
[/quote]

I am in the process of having the pots replaced on my 1967 Hofner Verithin. They have been terribly scratchy for a while and the volume controls were getting to the point where they simply cut out at some (wrong) points.

My luthier cleaned them up before Christmas and things were good again for a couple of weeks, but then quickly deteriorated back to square one again. So they are coming out - I'll keep the original pots in a box somewhere just in case they are ever needed.

I'm taking the view that I own the bass to play it, not for it to be an ornament. Besides, I've owned it for 28 years, it's exactly as old as I am and I'm unlikely to part with it before I'm in my grave.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='cybertect' timestamp='1455484256' post='2979553']
I am in the process of having the pots replaced on my 1967 Hofner Verithin. They have been terribly scratchy for a while and the volume controls were getting to the point where they simply cut out at some (wrong) points.

My luthier cleaned them up before Christmas and things were good again for a couple of weeks, but then quickly deteriorated back to square one again. So they are coming out - I'll keep the original pots in a box somewhere just in case they are ever needed.

I'm taking the view that I own the bass to play it, not for it to be an ornament. Besides, I've owned it for 28 years, it's exactly as old as I am and I'm unlikely to part with it before I'm in my grave.
[/quote]

Same here. All of my Hofners have had replacement parts and/or upgrades, and play even better as a consequence. I've never bought an instrument with the intention of selling it, so 'value' lost is, to me, irrelevant. Same with pretty well everything that I buy, as it happens, from my drums, to my car, the washing machine and chain saw. I buy them because I want them, look after them properly, and only change them if they're really beyond repair. Resale value has never, ever, been even in the back of my mind. Different genes or something, I suppose.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1455412931' post='2978979']
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic but capacitor type/construction has zero effect on tone.
[/quote] "[color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=4]as you may discover, there is a great deal of snake oil used in the audiophile capacitor industry." [/size][/font][/color]http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm