Suitable backline for theatres and medium-sized venues

[The Twickerman]

Hi all,

until now I've only ever done pub-sized gigs, but later this year I'm doing a tour of larger venues (up to about 2,500 I think). I know I only need the back line so that I can hear myself, but I also know that, even in pubs, hearing yourself when you're the bass player can be difficult. The long wavelength of the deeper notes mean that room nodes are very problematic.

I don't know if this problem might actually be less apparent in larger venues (I suspect it might), but I am wondering if my 115W Valve head/15" speaker combination will be sufficient to hear myself. I wonder if simply swapping to a 2x10" (with a horn) and ensuring it's drivers are directed towards my head(!) might be a wise "upgrade".

Any comments?

Thanks!
- Nick.

[EBS_freak]

If you are in theatres, you'd hope that there's a good console available.

In which case, go in-ears.

[chris_b]

Several things will help. . .

A louder amp. I'd classify what you have as a practice amp. If you want to cover all eventualities you need at least 500 watts and a 212 or 410 cab. I prefer 212's.

Change your EQ. Aim to push the low mids not bass frequencies.

Keep it simple. You're on tour so with a lot of set ups, break downs and the rigours of travelling. Take care of your gear because if you don't things will go wrong.

If you're playing 2500 seater's then you'll have FOH. Make sure you have good monitors and a good monitor mix. If you don't then a good 500w amp and 212 cab is essential.

[jazzyvee]

The main problem with large indoor gigs is stage volume which is usually incredibly loud compared to pub sized gigs purely from the monitor mixes and backlines so you might still not even be able to hear the cab behind you clearly even if you get a bigger rig because the engineer will want to keep your rigs volume lower, and give you more in the monitor to reduce spill into the house mix.

If like me you wear ear plugs, I recommend you do, you have to resist the temptation to turn the volume up more.
If you like the sound of your current rig then I'd suggest using it, I use an 8ohm mesa 1x15 a lot with a 300w walkabout head which gives me maximum of about 160watts and I can hear myself fine. I do tend to put my cab back about 8 feet or so from me so I can so I get a chance to hear some direct sound from it at head level but I think the most important thing is to get a decent mix in your monitors as your priority and your cab will keep the bottom for you. If you get the balance right between the monitor and your cab behind you the sound kind of feels like its surrounding you rather than coming from the back or front and keep some higher mid frequencies in for pitching.

I have tried putting the bass cab on a flight case or something to get it closer to head height but I miss the bottom end which is what keeps me connected with the feel of the music.

Edited February 18, 2016 by jazzyvee

[Dad3353]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1455805105' post='2982592']...
A louder amp. I'd classify what you have as a practice amp. If you want to cover all eventualities you need at least 500 watts ...
[/quote]
[quote name='The Twickerman' timestamp='1455801674' post='2982546']
...my 115W [b]Valve [/b]head/15" speaker...
[/quote]

That's not a 'practise amp' at all. If it's a Fender Bassman or equivalent, all the power needed is there. Maybe look at the cab options, but the amp will be up to it, no problem.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Dad3353

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='The Twickerman' timestamp='1455801674' post='2982546']
(...)
[b] my 115W Valve head/15" speaker combination[/b]
(...)
[/quote]


[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1455805105' post='2982592']
(...)
[b]I'd classify what you have as a practice amp.[/b]
(...)
[/quote]

Can you even hear anything... at all?

[Ghost_Bass]

ahhhhh! beaten to it...

[chris_b]

The OP asked for comments and all you lot can do is criticise mine.

Exercise some of those outraged brain cells and give the guy some "better" suggestions.

[Beer of the Bass]

How about a second matching cab for your existing head? That should get you a bit more volume and bring the speaker closer to ear level for monitoring.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1455811849' post='2982661']
The OP asked for comments and all you lot can do is criticise mine.

Exercise some of those outraged brain cells and give the guy some "better" suggestions.
[/quote]

OK!

@OP: Your existing 115W valve amp in a 15" cab will be perfectly fine for those venues if:

1 - The cab has suficient excursion and is sensitive enough to handle your amp at about half-wack;

2 - Your drummer/guitarrist doesn't like to play harder/louder than everybody else;

If 1 and/or 2 doesn't apply then start by upgrading the cab to something with more SPL and maybe more than one driver.


EDIT:
If you keep the current rig but need sound at ear level then invest in a stand to lift your cab to the desired height.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Ghost_Bass

[IanA]

Maybe the op should call Alex and ask him😏

[fretmeister]

The bigger the room, the lower the onstage volume needs to be.

I'd go with in ears if possible, but if not then wedge cabs that point up towards your head. between them and the hopefully supplied monitors you'll hear yourself.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='The Twickerman' timestamp='1455801674' post='2982546'] Hi all, until now I've only ever done pub-sized gigs, but later this year I'm doing a tour of larger venues (up to about 2,500 I think). I know I only need the back line so that I can hear myself, but I also know that, even in pubs, hearing yourself when you're the bass player can be difficult. The long wavelength of the deeper notes mean that room nodes are very problematic. I don't know if this problem might actually be less apparent in larger venues (I suspect it might), but I am wondering if my 115W Valve head/15" speaker combination will be sufficient to hear myself. I wonder if simply swapping to a 2x10" (with a horn) and ensuring it's drivers are directed towards my head(!) might be a wise "upgrade". Any comments? Thanks! - Nick. [/quote]

Hi Nick, we probably need a few more details. First of all a budget? Secondly what sort of music you are playing and how your PA is being done? Are you relying upon the venues where it will be very variable or are you hiring in a PA with engineers. If the latter than you should make an early appointment to talk to the sound engineers who are going on tour with you, no point in spending if they are going to put you through the front line monitors. You need to have some input too, are you happy to let them control your sound or would you like to control at least your on stage sound?

Assuming the worst, that the PA will be variable, then I'd go for a rig that will cover everything pretty much, and something that will be reliable, Having problems in front of 50 people is embarrassing but in front of 1000........ If you want something that covers all bases then something modular and at least 500W might be in order, hence the popularity of 4x10's. I'd also be looking for something with a reasonably clean flat response without necessarily too much lower bass extension in the speaker department. In bigger spaces you have more opportunity to find room resonances you didn't know existed. It's worth thinking about having an amp with a post eq output if you want some control of your sound. Most sound engineers like a DI straight off your bass, for the perfectly good reason that if the amp goes wrong they still have a signal, and that signal will be the cleanest they can get. They may then also mic your cab and mix that with the clean signal. if you want to control your sound and have a load of pedals you don't have to accept that, but talk to them and be assertive but prepared to compromise.

Good luck, you'll get more detailed suggestions once people know a little more.

[casapete]

This ^^^^
I regularly play in large theatres, and have yet to struggle with my rig. (Gallien Krueger 1001 RB into a GK 4x10 Neo cab )
I use a wedge monitor for all I need other than my bass sound, and always manage to find a good balance.
Most of the band use in-ears but I just can't be arsed with them TBH. Never yet struggled with hearing myself, and love
the 'live' sound this set up allows. Of course this maybe does n't work for everyone, but for me it's the best solution.
My take is that having a decent backline is always the best approach, meaning I have control over what I hear at all times.
Nothing worse that not having enough level or headroom.
Our engineer is great, and uses a Sansamp Bass Driver to DI into the PA rather than the amp's one, just in case. ( Should
my amp fail, I could no doubt get through the show with just a monitor feed if pushed.)

[Lozz196]

I think either go for a more portable and mpre powerful head and 410/212 cab, or add another 115 or 210 (from the same range) to the existing 115 cab.

Having played a very big stage last year I was amazed to find how much I needed to push my amp, and that was through a provided 610 cab. It had to be much louder than I usually have it. Admittedly there weren`t soundchecks so there was just a small mix of the instruments through the monitors, but the volume I needed would have killed my ears in regular venues. I`d say up the power - plus with a lightweight set-up, well it will make the tour easier as well.

[wateroftyne]

If the monitors are 'proper' pro standard, you can rely on those. Also, don't let the band's volume spiral out of control just because it's a big venue. Keep it controlled.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1455828581' post='2982855']
If the monitors are 'proper' pro standard, you can rely on those. Also, don't let the band's volume spiral out of control just because it's a big venue. Keep it controlled.
[/quote]

You know, there is one man you can call...

[sunburstjazz1967]

I can't imagine there is a venue on earth that has a capacity of 2500 with monitors worse than your average 500 watt bass rig? The highest live volumes I've encountered have been practice rooms and the quietest have ALWAYS been the biggest venues! I've used a 1x12 cab in front of a few thousand people with no problems at all.

[IanA]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1455831958' post='2982894']
I can't imagine there is a venue on earth that has a capacity of 2500 with monitors worse than your average 500 watt bass rig? The highest live volumes I've encountered have been practice rooms and the quietest have ALWAYS been the biggest venues! I've used a 1x12 cab in front of a few thousand people with no problems at all.
[/quote]
Couldn't agree more, I placed demontfort hall in Leicester a while back with a 112 cab but when jamming at a rehearsal room with a blues trio a 212 was not enough! Go figure🤓

[taunton-hobbit]

Check out the venue pa before you even think about the booking.
If it all looks good, I'd go for dummy stacks & in-ear -
-you know it makes sense.......

[AlpherMako4]

I use in ears all the time now when gigging, either on bass or on the drums. They're wonderful. And you can get some quite cheap these days. I'd say go for that and a Di box if your amp doesn't have a Di out. What is your amp and speaker?

[scalpy]

Definitely in-ears if you're touring with your own sound engineer. Whilst I've not done theatres of quite that capacity, normally more like 250-400, I've yet to experience a house engineer that has the skill set or inclination to fine tune the bass players monitor mix.

The other thing to consider is what will be the least amount of work for other people. If you can be self sufficient, monitor yourself easily and get everything loaded without getting under people's toes you'll have covered most bases.

Decent 500w head, good quality 112 and and good di should be top of the shopping list.

[The Twickerman]

Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions.

Some asked for more info - so here goes. Budget isn't really the issue here - I should be able to borrow most of what I need. Unfortunately I am not intimately involved with setting up the tour - and although we are taking our own sound man I don't think we'll know exactly what to expect in each venue (the largest is 2000 capacity I think - but there are some smaller ones). I've not worked with him before - but I'll talk to the sound man to find out how he likes to tackle the bass (DI from the bass, DI from the amp, mic etc.).

I'd like to investigate in-ear monitoring - but maybe next year. This year I'd like to focus on sounding good on-stage, if that makes sense. I'll use my backline to monitor myself then get the sound man to ensure I can hear everyone else through the wedges.

I am thinking, based on what's been said, of using a matching 2x10, on top of the 1x15 - making the speakers are closer to head height. I'm still hopeful that 115W of valve power will be sufficient to hear myself on stage. We're not loud - it's prog rock!

Perhaps I ought to consider up-grading the amp though... hmmmm.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='The Twickerman' timestamp='1455886211' post='2983290']
I'd like to investigate in-ear monitoring - but maybe next year. This year I'd like to focus on sounding good on-stage, if that makes sense. I'll use my backline to monitor myself then get the sound man to ensure I can hear everyone else through the wedges.
[/quote]

If you haven't seen it already, join the fun in this thread - http://basschat.co.uk/topic/205633-in-ear-monitors-help-needed/ - lots of information, probably the most comprehensive on the net.

[The Twickerman]

Thanks!