The 'Clay Dot Myth' - They Were LINO!

[discreet]

Below is an interesting piece I found on the interwebz. Apparently clay dots weren't made of clay, they were pressed fibreboard and in some cases, lino..! Sounds plausible to me. Just the sort of thing Leo would do...

[b]The 'Clay Dot Myth'[/b]

"Pre-CBS dots in rosewood fingerboards, which have become known as 'clay' dots over the last 25 years - were not made of clay or any type of paste. The claim that the dots were made of a mythical paste called 'Ivorine' is just that - a myth - that has been embellished by people who swallowed that theory without testing it.

Bill Carson stated that the white dots in rosewood boards from 1959 to 1964 were installed the same way as the black dots prior to 1959 and that the material was fibreboard. Carson left professional music in 1957 to work full-time at Fender, first in guitar construction and then as guitar foreman, supervisor and plant manager.

At a luthier's seminar, Yasuhiko Iwanade (President of Gibson, Japan and ex-Fender employee) said that Leo Fender told him that the clay dots were white vulcanized fiberboard.

Some pre-CBS guitars with original white dots appear to have dots made from lino, so it appears Fender used at least two different types of material, but both were discs pre-cut or punched and then pressed into the holes and NOT a paste scraped into the hole.

Fender had been using black discs for 9 years before this, so there was no logical reason to completely change their process to one that was slower and more expensive - and then change back again when they started to use Pearloid dots in 1965.

Many original guitars lost their 'clay' dots during their first re-fret, because the dots were very thin... I have had them fall out when I sanded boards 25 years ago and I then made a paste to replace them - and the owner didn't notice!

That has been going on since the late 60s when the guitars needed re-fretting or the player wanted a flatter fingerboard radius - it was common to lose the twelfth fret dots - so a guitar that had its dots replaced by paste 30-40 years ago might well lead someone to think the dots were the originals if they saw the guitar today without knowing its history.

We had an original dot from a 1962 guitar analysed in a laboratory. The result - 'This material has a high content of zinc-hydrochloride and cellulose.' Zinc-hydrochloride is used to produce vulcanized fibre and the base for vulcanised fibre is cellulose."

So there it is. I have it on good authority the very best replica builders use genuine 60s lino!

Edited February 19, 2016 by discreet

[HazBeen]

Good read

[Beer of the Bass]

Vulcanised fibre board is the stuff they made pickup flatwork and amplifier eyelet boards from, so it makes sense that they'd use it elsewhere.

[discreet]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1455909199' post='2983615']
Vulcanised fibre board is the stuff they made pickup flatwork and amplifier eyelet boards from, so it makes sense that they'd use it elsewhere.
[/quote]

Yes, and I think the very early 1951 bridge saddles were made of it too, as were the first pickup bobbins. I believe this was due to a lack of resources owing to the Korean war.

[JapanAxe]

Lino dots? Yep, when I look along my fretboard I see a [b]line o' dots [/b]

[discreet]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1455909364' post='2983617']
Lino dots? Yep, when I look along my fretboard I see a [b]line o' dots [/b]
[/quote]

[Twincam]

I read recently that the Lino story is the untrue myth it may even be on the fender site or some fender facts thing and that there actually a type of wood filler of the time that was already in use somewhere in the factory this saved money and was already in stock Leo liked the efficiency of this.

[discreet]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1455909905' post='2983623']
I read recently that the Lino story is the untrue myth it may even be on the fender site or some fender facts thing and that there actually a type of wood filler of the time that was already in use somewhere in the factory this saved money and was already in stock Leo liked the efficiency of this.
[/quote]

This from fenderbassplayer.com:

[b]"Clay Dots[/b]

One of the most interesting Fender myths is the clay dots or position markers used on rosewood fingerboards from 1959 to 1964. For years collectors have coveted the fact that Fender basses from this period had tan or brown tinted position markers as opposed to the white or faux pearl dots. The stories of what type of material Fender used for these markers had been disputed for years.

Probably the biggest myth is that Fender used old floor tile material to create the so called clay dots. The story goes that Leo Fender needed to change the floor in the Fender factory and decided that in order to save money they could use the old tiles to cut out the position markers for the new rosewood fingerboards. It's also usually added that the tiles contained dangerous asbestos, making things a little more dramatic. Other stories have Fender using actually clay material for the dots, hence their name.

The truth is that Fender used a type of filler compound that was popular for furniture work back in the day. The material would dry hard and was actually stark white in color when new. Over time the combination of the oil from the rosewood board and the general sweat and dirt from years of playing would turn the dots that clay color."

So there you go!

Also today I mixed up some butter with some I Can't Believe It's Not Butter, so now I don't know what the f*** to believe.

Edited February 19, 2016 by discreet

[Old Man Riva]

Something that's often overlooked when it comes to Freddie Tavares is that he had absolutely nothing to do with the 1970s pop act Tavares.

[discreet]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1455914710' post='2983679']
I regret that neither account is correct...
[/quote]



Brilliant, Skank...

[Twincam]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1455914710' post='2983679']
I regret that neither account is correct. The issue of 'clay dots' was explored in successive articles in Guitar Player during the 1980's; the definitive explanation emerged in an interview with long-time Fender employee and consultant Freddie Tavares by GP staffer Kirk Esanvantio in the July '83 issue:
[/quote]

Pmsl!

[cameltoe]

Skank raises a very important point here: What has happened to white dog sh1t?

[chriswareham]

Was wondering where Mr Delvar was, as I hadn't seen one of his illuminating and authoritative posts for a while. It's also little known that the notoriously miserly owner of a certain litigious maker of guitars insists on using recycled IKEA furniture to make bass bodies, hence the "tail lift" problem from the poor quality wood.

[KiOgon]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1455914710' post='2983679']
I regret that neither account is correct. The issue of 'clay dots' was explored in successive articles in Guitar Player during the 1980's; the definitive explanation emerged in an interview with long-time Fender employee and consultant Freddie Tavares by GP staffer Kirk Esanvantio in the July '83 issue:
[/quote]Superb Mr Skank

[discreet]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1455976042' post='2984144']
Skank raises a very important point here: What has happened to white dog sh1t?
[/quote]

Again, this may or may not be true, but I read somewhere that it's because of the decline of the high-street butcher and the fact that most people buy their meat from supermarkets and therefore no longer ask for bones to give to their dogs. It was the ingestion of calcium that made the dogshit white in the past and because dogs effectively no longer eat bones that there's far less white dogshit...

Edited February 20, 2016 by discreet

[Jazzneck]

Welcome home Skank.

That was worth the wait.
eyethangyoooo!

[colgraff]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1455979425' post='2984204']
Again, this may or may not be true, but I read somewhere that it's because of the decline of the high-street butcher and the fact that most people buy their meat from supermarkets and therefore no longer ask for bones to give to their dogs. It was the ingestion of calcium that made the dogshit white in the past and because dogs effectively no longer eat bones that there's far less white dogshit...
[/quote]

Yup. That's definitely true.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

I was under the impression that regulations regarding dog food used to be very lax, which led to certain pet food manufacturers using all sorts of material as filler to bulk out the content, much the same way that butchers use breadcrumbs/cereal in sausages. I may well be wrong about this, but there used to be a very cheap dogmeat that was rumoured to use incinerator ashes to pad out the mechanically reclaimed meat - the phenomenon of white dogshit disappeared quite suddenly where I live, so it's given much stronger credence to the petfood filler theory than having anything to do with butchers and bones (in my mind anyhoo).

[discreet]

[quote name='SubsonicSimpleton' timestamp='1455981841' post='2984239']
I was under the impression that regulations regarding dog food used to be very lax, which led to certain pet food manufacturers using all sorts of material as filler to bulk out the content, much the same way that butchers use breadcrumbs/cereal in sausages. I may well be wrong about this, but there used to be a very cheap dogmeat that was rumoured to use incinerator ashes to pad out the mechanically reclaimed meat - the phenomenon of white dogshit disappeared quite suddenly where I live, so it's given much stronger credence to the petfood filler theory than having anything to do with butchers and bones (in my mind anyhoo).
[/quote]

Also plausible and fits well in this thread, where there seem to be few facts! But this sounds likely to me.

[Rich]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1455909364' post='2983617']
Lino dots? Yep, when I look along my fretboard I see a [b]line o' dots [/b]
[/quote]
*holds out coat, points at door*

[Gregcharles]

Hey guys I am very amused by all the comments here its a good read. I have a clay dot question that has just come to haunt me.  i am listing my 1964 Strat for sale and got a Japanese buyer, or at least in name, that is looking for a very specific spec asking if the dots in my November 64 strat are pearl.  Well here we go down the rabbit hole, how and the heck would i know. Also even though it may be rare, does it infer it could have been assembled in 65, because as we know Leo built necks in advance runs, nobody could probably answer that.  I assume after reading a bit that they changed the dots some time at the end of 64 but not consistently.  how would i know the difference?  My guitars dots are not turning yellow or brown as some as said to do and they look like a little bit of a hash marking across them where they were cut. they do have a luster that could be a peralized material, not sure.  the guitar is very well taken care of and still has the original frets so its not surprising to me that the dots are not worn.  any clues from you more astute fender guys on the subject would be appreciated.  thanks  

[Baloney Balderdash]

This is the REAL clay dot myth! :

Clay dots are said to add a lot of mojo to the brown side of the frequency spectrum, like they will emphasis the powerful fecal tone qualities that extensive scientific studies has shown have a huge and vivid impact on how we physically percept the sonical quasi dimensional structures that inhabits the neural link between general sound waves and the time/space continuum, as well as progressively alternating the concept of the transcendental relationship between the momental velocity of the imperative momentum and the lethargic nature of procrastinating contemplation.

This comprehensive effect is speculated to drive women absolutely and utterly wild!