Lightweight Wedge cab?

[Kiwi]

Does anyone know of a reputable company that makes neo wedge cabs for bass? I can't seem to find any and although I was talking to Dr Bass about it a while ago, but I just thought I'd see if anyone knew of any other suppliers apart from potentially Zoot?

[BigRedX]

Have a look at [url="http://www.bassline-bass.de/english/boxen_chamaeleon.php"]Bassline Chameleon Cabs[/url]. Some of them come with tilt baffles. Looks interesting.

[Kiwi]

Hmmm, thanks Red! Unfortunately the price list says they're not made any more. Im not sure how air tight the top cabs would be though.

[franzbassist]

Bang a high power neo in each of [url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SWR-Bass-Monitors-ultra-rare-wedge-cabs_W0QQitemZ140268441159QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140268441159&_trkparms=72%3A12|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14"]these[/url] CK and you're sorted!

[Kiwi]

Hmmm, interesting! I'll keep an eye on them. Thanks Gareth.

[mr_russ]

I've got my eye on those too ;D - although a single one would do me for small acoustic gigs

[Kiwi]

I'm not so sure about them to be honest, the reviews say the bass response is a little lacking.

[Ba55me15ter]

I'm after exactly the same thing - a compact, lightweight wedge. Using a JBL Eon PA cab at the mo, which does a surprisingly good job.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Ba55me15ter' post='289821' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:58 AM']I'm after exactly the same thing - a compact, lightweight wedge. Using a JBL Eon PA cab at the mo, which does a surprisingly good job.[/quote]
I found the website of someone else on t'internet last night who was using a pair of those monitors as well. FWIW I'm quite happy with the GB Shuttle I have (and happy in fact everytime I pick it up and chuck it into the pocket of my gig bag ) so probably just the cabs would do. I remember Trace Elliot used to do wedge cabs as well but I was never that keen on the low end response of Trace 10" cabs with 5 or 6 string basses.

[alexclaber]

As I've said before, the problem with wedge cabs for bass is that the internal volume is much less which leads to much less bass response. Some kind of fold out or removable tilting mechanism would be a better bet IMO.

Alex

[Kiwi]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='289989' date='Sep 23 2008, 02:22 PM']As I've said before, the problem with wedge cabs for bass is that the internal volume is much less which leads to much less bass response. Some kind of fold out or removable tilting mechanism would be a better bet IMO.

Alex[/quote]
Indeed you have Alex But a tilting mechanism wouldn't allow a cab to tilt back far enough. I know you've mentioned a cone of 30 degrees radiating out from the speaker but in practice, on stage, I definitely [i]need[/i] to have a cone more or less pointing at my ears to hear it properly.

[Ba55me15ter]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='290037' date='Sep 23 2008, 03:18 PM']Indeed you have Alex But a tilting mechanism wouldn't allow a cab to tilt back far enough. I know you've mentioned a cone of 30 degrees radiating out from the speaker but in practice, on stage, I definitely [i]need[/i] to have a cone more or less pointing at my ears to hear it properly.[/quote]

The loss in bottom-end doesn't really bother me as I know my full range sound is going out front. I find the positioning of a close wedge cab pointing directly at me head more than makes up for any loss in bottom-end response. While it's nice to have the low freq vibes coming through your feet, I find mids/low mids much more useful for pitching in a noisy gig environment, plus the positioning lets a lot more top-end actually reach your ears, as opposed to your arse.

The JBL is a one-handed carry, so with the Mark Bass SA450 over the shoulder and bass in t'other hand, I'm a one trip man!

Edited September 23, 2008 by Ba55me15ter

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Ba55me15ter' post='290124' date='Sep 23 2008, 05:10 PM']The loss in bottom-end doesn't really bother me as I know my full range sound is going out front. I find the positioning of a close wedge cab pointing directly at me head more than makes up for any loss in bottom-end response. While it's nice to have the low freq vibes coming through your feet, I find mids/low mids much more useful for pitching in a noisy gig environment, plus the positioning lets a lot more top-end actually reach your ears, as opposed to your arse.

The JBL is a one-handed carry, so with the Mark Bass SA450 over the shoulder and bass in t'other hand, I'm a one trip man![/quote]
Thats a pretty good description of my position too, often any lows I'm generating on stage compete with the subs from the FOH anyway and it all gets a bit much. On a larger stage I'm sure it might become an issue but for the small places we usually play, its more the focussed lower mids and highs I need. Thats why I mentioned the Trace cabs but in my experience they've been quite muddy and the tweeter can be quite harsh.

[alexclaber]

If you need the cab tilted back at 45 degrees or more then you could achieve that with a threaded rod with rubber foot that screws into a socket in the back of the cab.

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='290037' date='Sep 23 2008, 03:18 PM']I know you've mentioned a cone of 30 degrees radiating out from the speaker but in practice, on stage, I definitely [i]need[/i] to have a cone more or less pointing at my ears to hear it properly.[/quote]

I thought I mustn't have explained that clearly enough. If your mids are coming from a 12" woofer than you probably need to be within about 10 degrees of on-axis to get all of them. If your mids are coming from a 6.5" woofer then you could be 30 deg off and still hear them well. The dispersion is inversely proportional to the size of the source.

Alex

[The Funk]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='290152' date='Sep 23 2008, 05:42 PM']The dispersion is inversely proportional to the size of the source.[/quote]

Is this a stupid question: does this mean generally that the smaller the speaker the greater the dispersion BUT the smaller the speaker the higher the frequency range AND the higher the frequency range the smaller the dispersion?

[Kiwi]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='290152' date='Sep 23 2008, 05:42 PM']If you need the cab tilted back at 45 degrees or more then you could achieve that with a threaded rod with rubber foot that screws into a socket in the back of the cab.[/quote]
I think it would need supports on both sides or a frame. Once a lightweight cab starts vibrating with mids and lows its very easy for it to tilt either way. I've had a cab fall completely on its back even though its been propped up against a wall because its been shaking so much while tilted on its back edge that its started walking. I've had a look at amp stands but I'd rather not take yet another piece of kit with me to a gig. With the bass(es), speaker, kit bag and stage clobber, it's quite enough for one trip.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='290152' date='Sep 23 2008, 05:42 PM']I thought I mustn't have explained that clearly enough. If your mids are coming from a 12" woofer than you probably need to be within about 10 degrees of on-axis to get all of them. If your mids are coming from a 6.5" woofer then you could be 30 deg off and still hear them well. The dispersion is inversely proportional to the size of the source.[/quote]
That ties in much more closely to my on stage experience. My mids are currently coming from a 12" cone.

BTW, my GK wedge combo put out superb lows. So FWIW I have been satisfied with a wedge cab already.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='290162' date='Sep 23 2008, 05:49 PM']I think it would need supports on both sides or a frame. Once a lightweight cab starts vibrating with mids and lows its very easy for it to tilt either way. I've had a cab fall completely on its back even though its been propped up against a wall because its been shaking so much while tilted on its back edge that its started walking.[/quote]

That's a clear sign of a cab with insufficient bracing. I'm finding interesting to note that I'm doing about everything possible to make a cab as light as possible, and it's quite complicated, yet there are a few other makers producing equally light cabs without all the clever stuff to stop the cab resonating. A well-braced cab should stand up perfectly well with 3 points of contact.

[quote name='The Funk' post='290159' date='Sep 23 2008, 05:46 PM']Is this a stupid question: does this mean generally that the smaller the speaker the greater the dispersion BUT the smaller the speaker the higher the frequency range AND the higher the frequency range the smaller the dispersion?[/quote]

Any sound source has two limits - the one below which all frequencies are radiated omnidirectionally and the one above which all frequencies are beamed (projected in a very narrow spotlight type beam). The omnidirectional frequency limit is two octaves below the beaming limit. In between the two the sound transitions from omnidirectional to forwards only and then in a gradually narrowing cone until it is beaming.

Courtesy of Eminence:



Note that this theoretical and assumes that all frequencies radiate equally from the speaker. In reality you get much more of the high frequency output from the middle of the cone and also from the dustcap itself. One of the speakers I use doesn't have much output from the dustcap because it's a really stiff woofer and cap, whilst the other has a lot of output specifically from the dustcap so despite the speaker being a 15" you still get a good amount of output off-axis above 1kHz.

Also note that as soon as you put a pair of speakers side by side they interact in various ways and one result is the dispersion ability approximately halving in the plane of their width.

Alex

[Kiwi]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='290200' date='Sep 23 2008, 06:19 PM']That's a clear sign of a cab with insufficient bracing. I'm finding interesting to note that I'm doing about everything possible to make a cab as light as possible, and it's quite complicated, yet there are a few other makers producing equally light cabs without all the clever stuff to stop the cab resonating. A well-braced cab should stand up perfectly well with 3 points of contact.[/quote]
With all due respect even a well braced lightweight cab will vibrate because of cone movement. The bracing just means the whole box will vibrate instead of the walls, and thats whats happening with the EBS cab when its tipped on its back edge.

Anyways, I had another look on t'interweb and hmmmmm...



[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/gallien_krueger_neo210.htm?partner_id=87171"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/gallien_krueger_n...artner_id=87171[/url]

[Buzz]

Would not a BFM designed cab fit the bill? I think he's designed a couple of wedges.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Buzz' post='290304' date='Sep 23 2008, 08:30 PM']Would not a BFM designed cab fit the bill? I think he's designed a couple of wedges.[/quote]
I'm certainly open to that possibility if there's something that fits the bill.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='290293' date='Sep 23 2008, 08:17 PM']With all due respect even a well braced lightweight cab will vibrate because of cone movement. The bracing just means the whole box will vibrate instead of the walls, and thats whats happening with the EBS cab when its tipped on its back edge.[/quote]

With all due respect the total cone mass in a 2x10" or 1x15" including the related air load is little more than 100g. Such a mass moving back and forth by a few mm is not going to make a mass more than one hundred times as great move in any significant way. Based on my experience most bass cabs, whether lightweight or heavyweight are underbraced and underdamped. Tilt an Acme cab up and it won't go anywhere because it's really solidly built and properly braced, despite the high excursion woofers creating far more internal pressure than on a run of the mill cab.

Alex

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='290308' date='Sep 23 2008, 03:37 PM']Based on my experience most bass cabs, whether lightweight or heavyweight are underbraced and underdamped. Tilt an Acme cab up and it won't go anywhere because it's really solidly built and properly braced, despite the high excursion woofers creating far more internal pressure than on a run of the mill cab.

Alex[/quote]
+1. Well designed and constructed cabs don't vibrate, poorly designed and built cabs do. One place where manufacturers cut corners de riguer is with bracing, as it can't be seen. The same applies to internal damping.
[quote name='The Funk' post='290159' date='Sep 23 2008, 12:46 PM']Is this a stupid question: does this mean generally that the smaller the speaker the greater the dispersion BUT the smaller the speaker the higher the frequency range AND the higher the frequency range the smaller the dispersion?[/quote]
Yes. The main reason for the necessity of using multiple drivers of different sizes is that small drivers can't go low, and large drivers can't deliver wide dispersion at higher frequencies.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Kiwi]

Can we please get back on topic? Wedges?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='290448' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:20 PM']Can we please get back on topic? Wedges?[/quote]

Are we off-topic? The point of a wedge is so you can hear yourself better. If you can achieve the same result with a non-wedge shaped cabinet then you don't need a wedge.

Alex

[The Funk]

The only two bass amp manufactured wedges I've heard of are the Eden and the GK. I saw that BFM has one which is designed to accomodate bass frequencies.

Edited September 24, 2008 by The Funk