Gottastopbuyinggear Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I'm thinking about building a 2x10 cab to replace the Markbass Traveler 102P that I've been using for about a year now. I was pleased with that cab at first, but over time I've become more aware of it's prominent mid character and have now fallen completely out of love with it. The other cabs I use are an Ampeg PF115HE, which is great but a tad heavy, and very recently a Purple Chili 112 with no tweeter. Both of those give me enough bass for what I play (a mixture of old school R&B, classic rock, blues, etc. - J and P Basses). I'm looking for thump, not highs (tend to play with tweeters off) or huge deep lows. I'm considering a DIY build just for the fun of it, and may well try the Basschat 1x12 too. The first question I have is around real world frequency response, and what in reality I would expect to get from a very portable (perhaps 50 or 60 litres) ported 2x10. From the brief messing I've done with WinISD I'd expect to be able to get 3dB down at around 60-70Hz, and maybe 10dB down in the mid 40s Hz area. Is this a reasonable expectation for what I'd get from a fairly good quality commercial cab, and hence a good target for a DIY build? I get the impression that many of the claims of commercial cabs going down to the mid 40s Hz area are based on -10dB at that point rather than -3dB. Second consideration is around speaker choice. I couldn't find any real information about the speakers currently used by Markbass, but having heard they used to use B&C I had a quick look on their website and found that the frequency response charts for all their 10" Neos seem to indicate being between 5 and 7.5 dB higher between 300 and 1,000Hz compared to the 100 to 200Hz area, which I'm assuming would indicate quite prominent mids? I've been looking at a couple of Eminence speakers (Basslite S2010 and Deltalite ii 2510, mainly because they're well known and easily available) and they don't have that significant difference, being relatively flat from soon after 100Hz all the way up to 1KHz. I'm only just starting out trying to get anywhere near an understanding of this stuff, so I'd be interested in the opinions of those with more experience, in particular if my (fairly huge) assumptions about Markbass driver characteristics are likely to be on the right track. Also, any other suggestions for 10" lightweight speakers to consider, in a similar price range. I'm not worried about power handling - the MB and PC cabs give me more than enough volume at about 11 or 12 o'clock on a GK MB200, so they don't need to be able to handle hundreds of Watts. Sorry about the long winded post - give yourself a pat on the back if you've read to the end! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I've just used a [url="http://www.fane-international.com/downloads/Fane%20Sovereign%208225%20DS030513.pdf"]Fane Sovereign 8"[/url] speaker and have been really impressed with it. You could try and model a 10" Fane in WinISD and see what you think. It was a very good price, too..... but weighty for a little 'un. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 [quote name='Gottastopbuyinggear' timestamp='1456147751' post='2985840'] From the brief messing I've done with WinISD I'd expect to be able to get 3dB down at around 60-70Hz, and maybe 10dB down in the mid 40s Hz area. Is this a reasonable expectation for what I'd get from a fairly good quality commercial cab, and hence a good target for a DIY build? [/quote]Yes and no. Yes, that's typical of a commercial cab. No, it's not a good target for a DIY cab. Using tens a 50-55Hz f3 and 35-40Hz f10 is a reasonable target, easily achieved. You'd need to go around 40-45L per driver, but the external dimensions will only be a few cm larger than 25-30L per driver, and with properly braced 12mm plywood construction and neo drivers the weight won't be bad. The Deltalite II 2510 is my go-to electric bass ten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1456153517' post='2985981'] Yes and no. Yes, that's typical of a commercial cab. No, it's not a good target for a DIY cab. Using tens a 50-55Hz f3 and 35-40Hz f10 is a reasonable target, easily achieved. You'd need to go around 40-45L per driver, but the external dimensions will only be a few cm larger than 25-30L per driver, and with properly braced 12mm plywood construction and neo drivers the weight won't be bad. The Deltalite II 2510 is my go-to electric bass ten. [/quote]. You will save yourself (the OP) a lot of time and money if you stick "bill fitzmaurice simplexx " into Google and buy some plans.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gottastopbuyinggear Posted February 23, 2016 Author Share Posted February 23, 2016 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1456184512' post='2986481'] . You will save yourself (the OP) a lot of time and money if you stick "bill fitzmaurice simplexx " into Google and buy some plans.... [/quote] Probably, but where would be the fun in that?! In fact I was already thinking of ordering the Simplexx plans, and have now done so although not received them yet. I'm assuming they'll have driver recommendations in them, and also hoping that there will be information in them about expected frequency response. I'm guessing from Bill's post that recommended drivers may well be/include the Deltalite ii. Referring back to what I alluded to in my original post, part of this for me is the satisfaction of building something for myself, and I'm happy to make some mistakes along the way, so that takes care of the time element. From a cost perspective it's the drivers rather than the actual cab where I don't want to make any huge mistakes, as for weight reasons I'll be looking for neo drivers and they're not exactly cheap. Hence the (pretty wild, I admit) conjecture about Markbass driver characteristics and wondering whether anyone had any views on that. I recognise that cab design is a massively complex subject, but on the other hand plenty of people appear to have had a crack at it and been happy with the results. The approach I had in mind was based on using a combination of the design parameters offered by Eminence, and WinISD, to come up with something which would hopefully have room for making some adjustments, if necessary, through adjustments to port size. There's definitely an attraction to building a proven design first, though, to be pretty certain of getting a good result. Also, from an educational point of view it would be good to be able to hear the reality of that result (i.e. build against a proven design) and reconcile it with a theoretical frequency response characteristic, if one is available. Of course, I could just be completely out of my mind as well as out of my depth - only time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 If you are going for Neo then the basslites are a good recommendation. I see you've found the Eminence website designs. As you can see from there the bass at -10dB does depend upon the size of the cab, and you'll need Bills bigger cab to get that. My opinion is that it's not the most important thing for playing live. Don't look at the Fane Sovereign 10's the 10-125 has a terrible set of specs and the 10-300 just sound really dull as well as being quite heavy. I've a soft spot for Fane but the sovereign 10's aren't good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gottastopbuyinggear Posted February 24, 2016 Author Share Posted February 24, 2016 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1456247353' post='2987044'] If you are going for Neo then the basslites are a good recommendation. I see you've found the Eminence website designs. As you can see from there the bass at -10dB does depend upon the size of the cab, and you'll need Bills bigger cab to get that. My opinion is that it's not the most important thing for playing live. [/quote] Part of the reason for the question about typical frequency response from commercial cabs was because I'm not sure I want a cab that does go particularly low. My PF115 goes low enough for me at the moment. I did take a quick look at the Fane, but the first thing I looked at was the weight, and then I looked no further! I was looking on the Eminence site at the weekend and the basslite sc 10 looks interesting. I see that's a new driver so I'm not sure how long it'll take for them to be available over here. That's available in 16 ohm, so I could make an 8 ohm 2x10 in case I wanted to add a second. I can't see me ever needing two 2x10s, but when has 'need' ever had any bearing on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I believe the three Musketeers are doing a 2x10 build soon so wait a little while and you will benefit from their knowledge and experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 [quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1456303609' post='2987473'] I believe the three Musketeers are doing a 2x10 build soon so wait a little while and you will benefit from their knowledge and experience. [/quote] Happy to give anyone a preview if you just want dimensions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) If this is a first build, you might be better to keep it simple and go with a 1x12". The size you want to build is about right for a 12. There is a wider choice of suitable drivers. Driver cost is going to be virtually half. There is quite a lot of info on this site covering a 12" build - the Basschat 12 Diary, and Beer of the Bass's build thread, to name just two. Your choice, of course. Oh yes, and in response to your other question, B&C drivers are excellent. They are one of the brands used by the major names in PA, which is always a good sign. Not all of their speakers are suitable for bass guitar, however. Oh, and one more thing: the frequency response curves for raw drivers on the various manufacturers' websites depend on how they are measured. So you can't really compare the 40 to 300Hz measurements on the Eminence website with the ones on the B&C website. You need to model the parameters to get an idea of how the drivers will perform in an actual cabinet. Edited February 24, 2016 by stevie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Dont forget Beymas They may not be NEOS but they're pretty awesome drivers. You can get them on special order from Blue Aran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gottastopbuyinggear Posted February 24, 2016 Author Share Posted February 24, 2016 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1456303786' post='2987477'] Happy to give anyone a preview if you just want dimensions. [/quote] Thanks Phil, that would definitely be of interest to me, along with what drivers you've used. Not sure if you want to PM that to me, or post it here and risk opening up a flood of questions - I bet I'm not the only one who's interested. [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1456312437' post='2987614'] If this is a first build, you might be better to keep it simple and go with a 1x12". The size you want to build is about right for a 12. There is a wider choice of suitable drivers. Driver cost is going to be virtually half. There is quite a lot of info on this site covering a 12" build - the Basschat 12 Diary, and Beer of the Bass's build thread, to name just two. Your choice, of course. [/quote] Yes, I'm quite keen to build the Basschat 1x12 as well, and I'm eagerly awaiting the full write up, although I think enough has been published so far to crack on anyway. I'm looking for a suitable local supplier for plywood at the moment (struggling to find someone in Cardiff who'll supply Poplar, so I might go for 12mm birch and brace). I was going to come up with a cutting list to cover the 1x12 and a 2x10, plus I've got a kit built valve amp to house as well, so all in all quite a bit to keep me going! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fleabag Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 SM110/N [IMG]http://i63.tinypic.com/2rhxk4k.jpg[/IMG] https://www.beyma.com/products/lowmidfrequency/110SMN8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 There is a wood merchant across the water in Bristol who stocks poplar ply: <http://www.avonply.co.uk/Client%20Area/ASP/Plywood.aspx>. I'm not a fan of 1/2" plywood, but if you do get normal ply, make sure you get Scandinavian or Russian birch ply. The good stuff really does make a difference to the stiffness of the cabinet. Beyma is a great choice. Their ceramic drivers are probably the best value out there at the moment (at least in the UK). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 [quote name='Gottastopbuyinggear' timestamp='1456318531' post='2987733'] Yes, I'm quite keen to build the Basschat 1x12 as well, and I'm eagerly awaiting the full write up, although I think enough has been published so far to crack on anyway. [/quote] There's enough information in the thread for you to get cracking, yes. As you seem familiar with WinISD, you can always modify it to suit yourself by, say, fitting different ports, modifying the bracing, etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gottastopbuyinggear Posted February 24, 2016 Author Share Posted February 24, 2016 [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1456320504' post='2987778'] There is a wood merchant across the water in Bristol who stocks poplar ply: <http://www.avonply.co.uk/Client%20Area/ASP/Plywood.aspx>. I'm not a fan of 1/2" plywood, but if you do get normal ply, make sure you get Scandinavian or Russian birch ply. The good stuff really does make a difference to the stiffness of the cabinet. Beyma is a great choice. Their ceramic drivers are probably the best value out there at the moment (at least in the UK). [/quote] I've actually already sent a quote request to Avon ply (based on the Basschat 1x12) just to see what their prices are and whether they'll deliver to Cardiff. Otherwise it'll be Easter at the earliest before I'd be able to get over to them to pick an order up. I'll take a look at the Beyma 10s as well - I can see that the 12 is getting a lot of love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Will you be changing your username to Gottastopbuildinggear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gottastopbuyinggear Posted February 25, 2016 Author Share Posted February 25, 2016 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1456412343' post='2988763'] Will you be changing your username to Gottastopbuildinggear? [/quote] Gottastartbuyingplywood if I'm to get anywhere with this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 So what's your view on the frequency response question, Alex? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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