Reasons for not going micro?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1456250202' post='2987105']
I bet it's hefty, too.
[/quote]

[sharedmedia=core:attachments:167485]

[largo]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1456242527' post='2986958']
I don't see why being 'less able' should preclude anyone from doing gigs. I agree that a Class A/B amp weighing 12kg isn't heavy - unless you need to carry it for a considerable distance. It's not always possible to park directly outside a venue, especially in large cities.
[/quote]

Apologies discreet, my last comment was supposed to be a bit tongue in cheek. I thought us bass players were supposed to lug around heavy gear. It's what makes us better than all other musicians.

I just moved back from class D back to a hefty amp and more than happy to put up with the extra weight.

[deksawyer]

Stephen, I might ask to borrow that Carbine sometime if that's OK?

D.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1456221490' post='2986680']


They're all empty - he has a Rumble 100 offstage.
[/quote]Surely we are not reduced to discussing his toilet habits?

Edited February 23, 2016 by Chienmortbb

[discreet]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1456257759' post='2987216']
Apologies discreet, my last comment was supposed to be a bit tongue in cheek.
[/quote]

Didn't mean to come across as disapproving, just an observation is all. I've joined a band that gigs a lot in London where the load-in is always a pain in the arse and one may have to leave the car some distance from the venue. I don't like unloading, parking and then walking back, too many opportunities for stuff to go walkies in the interim if people get distracted, which they do in that situation. Hence my recent respect for light gear. Pretty much anything gets heavy if you walk far enough carrying it.

Edited February 24, 2016 by discreet

[Conan]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1456273849' post='2987386']
Pretty much anything gets heavy if you walk far enough carrying it.
[/quote]

Our work here is done.

[Sparky Mark]

Here's a question based on the fact that 'every action has an equal and opposite reaction'.

Speakers work like pistons with the voice coil and cone being forced back and forth within the speaker frame/cage. Is it possible that in very light weight speaker cabinets that the speaker box is moving very slightly in the opposite direction to the cone? If you were to put a heavy weight on top of a light weight cab would it reduce any reactive movement of the cab and increase the acoustic energy from the speaker. Maybe 'heft' comes from stability of the baffle?

All I know is that my 40 pound 112 cabs have more h**t than my 25 pounders.

[Lw.]

Not sure where the perceived negative feeling has come from - everything seemed moderately above board to me (compared to other discussions), the OP asked for reasons not go buy a micro amp & got them - the average response being that most people saw them as a sonic compromise that is balanced out for many by the portability. I don't personally know any bassists that think class-D sounds better than traditional amps but I do know a lot that use them.

Discussion forums are all about people putting their opinions across - if you don't like that don't participate or start a thread stating your position & looking for agreement. For example; I could start a thread titled "Reasons for not buying a tube amp" and everyone would respond saying they're heavy & expensive, then discussion would start around whether they're worth the cost/weight which of course they may or may not be.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Lw.' timestamp='1456316118' post='2987685']
Not sure where the perceived negative feeling has come from - everything seemed moderately above board to me (compared to other discussions), the OP asked for reasons not go buy a micro amp & got them - the average response being that most people saw them as a sonic compromise that is balanced out for many by the portability. I don't personally know any bassists that think class-D sounds better than traditional amps but I do know a lot that use them.

Discussion forums are all about people putting their opinions across - if you don't like that don't participate or start a thread stating your position & looking for agreement. For example; I could start a thread titled "Reasons for not buying a tube amp" and everyone would respond saying they're heavy & expensive, then discussion would start around whether they're worth the cost/weight which of course they may or may not be.
[/quote]

You should have another read at the posts.

[wateroftyne]

If there is negativity toward class D in this thread, the thread title should explain why

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Sparky Mark' timestamp='1456316011' post='2987681']
Here's a question based on the fact that 'every action has an equal and opposite reaction'.

Speakers work like pistons with the voice coil and cone being forced back and forth within the speaker frame/cage. Is it possible that in very light weight speaker cabinets that the speaker box is moving very slightly in the opposite direction to the cone? If you were to put a heavy weight on top of a light weight cab would it reduce any reactive movement of the cab and increase the acoustic energy from the speaker. Maybe 'heft' comes from stability of the baffle?

All I know is that my 40 pound 112 cabs have more h**t than my 25 pounders.
[/quote]

I had my Barefaced Super12T (2x12") with a SS amp on top (Thunderfunk TFB550) move a bit too much on an outdoor gig. It was on top of a flyghtcase wich is a very smooth surface and it didn't help that the bass player that was borrowing my rig was in a thrash metal band In the end of the gig it was too close to the edge of the flyghtcase for my likings...
I've started to take with my a couple of anti-slipping matts, one to put between amp adn cab and another to go unederneath the cab's feet. Never had a movement since.

[Sparky Mark]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1456317205' post='2987708']


I had my Barefaced Super12T (2x12") with a SS amp on top (Thunderfunk TFB550) move a bit too much on an outdoor gig. It was on top of a flyghtcase wich is a very smooth surface and it didn't help that the bass player that was borrowing my rig was in a thrash metal band In the end of the gig it was too close to the edge of the flyghtcase for my likings...
I've started to take with my a couple of anti-slipping matts, one to put between amp adn cab and another to go unederneath the cab's feet. Never had a movement since.
[/quote]

The non slip pad is absorbing the energy wasted that was previously shifting the cab. It won't be making the baffle any more stable. Energy is also wasted within non or poorly braced enclosures as the cab walls flex.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Sparky Mark' timestamp='1456317850' post='2987721']
The non slip pad is absorbing the energy wasted that was previously shifting the cab. It won't be making the baffle any more stable. Energy is also wasted within non or poorly braced enclosures as the cab walls flex.
[/quote]

Not entirely true as the anti-slip mat adds friction and counteracts the momentum making the cab more stable and keeps it from moving forward/backwards. It doesn't absorv every vibration. In any case i have more than enough SPL's available not to bother with the lost energy. But, OTOH, what about line arrays that hang from a chain? They're not rigidly fixed so they can move a bit and also loose energy!. If we were going to go to the extreme we should all bolt our cabs to the ground because even a big hefty cab (oh, i said that word again...) will vibrate and move to some extend.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Sparky Mark' timestamp='1456316011' post='2987681']
Here's a question based on the fact that 'every action has an equal and opposite reaction'.

Speakers work like pistons with the voice coil and cone being forced back and forth within the speaker frame/cage. Is it possible that in very light weight speaker cabinets that the speaker box is moving very slightly in the opposite direction to the cone?
[/quote]

I guess it would be down to ratio of weight between the moving parts of the speaker and everything else (speaker chassis, magnet and cab). The moving parts of the speaker - the cone and the voice coil are pretty light compared to the other bits so although I couldn't formulate the actual equation I suspect I wouldn't be a noticeable factor unless the cab was extremely light.

Edited February 24, 2016 by bassman7755

[colgraff]

I'm a lightweight gear man all the way. The only thing that has unnecessary weight is me. I am, unfortunately, the living embodiment of heft.

[chris_b]

If a cab is badly designed or made it could vibrate. If it is well designed it won't. Light cabs have internal bracing precisely to stop them vibrating. As I said in another thread a cab that vibrates is like a car with a slipping clutch. Good cabs will put their sound out through the speaker and port rather than wasting it on vibrating the cab.

The cab mentioned earlier was probably moving because the sound waves were vibrating the box it was sitting on so non slip mats would work without affecting the sound of the cab.

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1456322940' post='2987820']
If a cab is badly designed or made it could vibrate. If it is well designed it won't. Light cabs have internal bracing precisely to stop them vibrating. As I said in another thread a cab that vibrates is like a car with a slipping clutch. Good cabs will put their sound out through the speaker and port rather than wasting it on vibrating the cab.

The cab mentioned earlier was probably moving because the sound waves were vibrating the box it was sitting on so non slip mats would work without affecting the sound of the cab.
[/quote]

Thanks for explaining that in a better english than mine. You're 100% right.

[Sparky Mark]

I too was a lightweight cab user until I recovered my heavier weight ceramic magnetic driver Bergantino cabs from the garage and was amazed at how much deeper they sounded than any of my neo cabs (including Bergantinos). They just seem to plant themselves more solidly due the extra weight and vibrate a whole lot less.

[taunton-hobbit]

I've got a 2k Crown (not exactly huge or heavy) and a clutch or Ormat valve thingys..........apart from the weight, the sound from the valve kit just has so much.......heft...........

[chris_b]

[quote name='Sparky Mark' timestamp='1456331402' post='2987976']
I too was a lightweight cab user until I recovered my heavier weight ceramic magnetic driver Bergantino cabs from the garage and was amazed at how much deeper they sounded than any of my neo cabs (including Bergantinos). They just seem to plant themselves more solidly due the extra weight and vibrate a whole lot less.
[/quote]

As a general observation, the weight of a cab will not make any difference to its sound.

It would help to know which cabs you're talking about.

[Sparky Mark]

I totally agree that there is no clear reason for heavy weight cabs sounding better. The neodymium magnets although smaller physically are still just magnets and speaker experts on here and Talkbass tell us there is no reason for them to sound different. However we are talking small margins here that some are convinced of and others not.
The speakers that I have intimate knowledge of and did compare are Bergantino HT112ER and EX112ER which are the deepest sounding followed by Markbass Traveller 121H then Bergantino AE112 least deep. All were compared using two Markbass SA450 heads to enable a true A to B comparison. Believe me I really wanted the lighter cabs to be as good for the sake of my back but the HT and EX won out.
I still gig my Markbass cabs and had no complaints about the AEs which are great cabs and it was only curiosity about the older Bergantinos before considering moving them on that led me to compare.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Sparky Mark' timestamp='1456338137' post='2988061']
I totally agree that there is no clear reason for heavy weight cabs sounding better. The neodymium magnets although smaller physically are still just magnets and speaker experts on here and Talkbass tell us there is no reason for them to sound different.
[/quote]

Not quite. Here's a quote from Bill Fitzmaurice from a while ago that made sense to me:

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice']
They are different. Neo allows longer excursion, not because of higher flux, but because the motor structure is more compact. Longer excursion results in higher output with less distortion. Most of us prefer that to lower output with higher distortion, but I guess not all.[/quote]

I think I fall into the latter category.

[Sparky Mark]

That says to me that neos will move more air before breaking up but not that the character of the sound will be different. The thing you do notice especially with the yellow cones is the long excursion but the HT and EX will go just as loud perhaps with a bit more output from the amp.

[wateroftyne]

I dunno. Surely the weight of the driver affects how it reacts? you'd think lighter = quicker = different character...?

[Sparky Mark]

The only moving parts are the voice coil, spider and cone which are probably very similar. In fact the neo may well have a longer voice coil to accommodate the longer excursion. I am guessing now though.