Reasons for not going micro?

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='Sparky Mark' timestamp='1456338137' post='2988061']

The speakers that I have intimate knowledge of and did compare are Bergantino HT112ER and EX112ER which are the deepest sounding followed by Markbass Traveller 121H then Bergantino AE112 least deep.

[/quote]

But what does 'deep' mean? And could it just be a baked-in resonance peak?

[Muzz]

The Berg cab (and I have the AEs) designs aren't the same - there's completely different porting, for starters: you'd need identical cabs with different speakers in to do a real A-B test.. the cab makers will design their cabs around the speakers, but the same speaker in different cabs will sound different, too. There's too many variables to call one particular factor as the single one...but they'll all have different characters: perhaps the neo designs lend themselves to a differently voiced cab...

Bill's point about distortion would indicate this, but I'm no expert. In anything...

[discreet]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1456340852' post='2988087']
And could it just be a baked-in resonance peak?
[/quote]


Mmmm, baked-in. Arrrgggggllle...

[Sparky Mark]

The comparison I performed was using the same amp and bass guitar with identical settings into the different cabs. The only variable is the pair of cabs. Absolutely the AEs are different designs to the HT and EX. The AEs are rear ported whilst the HT and EX are front ported. The A to B test was to compare the sound of the different cabs whilst everything else remains constant. That is an A to B test in my book.
Anyhow the HT and EX cab had a much stronger deep bass given the same setting of the amp. We're heading towards the definition of heft me thinks.☺

[Muzz]

Oh gawd...cabs have heft now, too? Blimey...

Yep, that's as close to an AB as you can do without making cabs from scratch - my point was that you could AB two differently designed neo cabs and get differences which might sound similar. Eh? You know what I mean... Actually, I know that's true: I've had Barefaced cabs which produce tons more bottom and other things (possibly perceived as heft, I dunno), than the AEs with the same amp settings...and they're all Neos. So are the Schroeders I've had, and they're very specifically voiced. Neo isn't necessarily the factor. I'm sure folk will disagree (in fact I can think of a couple who will), but ears are ears, and we all hear things differently...

[BassBod]

I would applaud the use of the word Heft....quite appropriate for describing the indescribable essence of a big old heavyweight amp, valve or otherwise.

For me there is only one real disadvantage to these modern lightweights - getting them fixed. While in production most manufactures seem pretty happy to replace circuit cards/most internal modules - but after those parts are no longer current stock, most likely your amp is heading to the tip. I've got 25 year old amps that are still mostly fixable..even if some components are harder to source or relatively costly. The thought of an expensive five year old amp being written off as unfixable due to its construction concerns me. Especially as they do all appear to be pretty similar.

Having said that, I'm very happy with the Aguilar TH500 and TKS S112 and its a joy to gig with, given the usual awkward load ins/ car sharing / crap parking situations I often work with.

[chardbass]

I've gone back to a slightly weightier setup.
I had been using a TC RH750 (I know) with an Epifani 310.
Sacked the TC as it was loud but with no weight to the sound- it just disappeared in the mix. Went back to my Eden WT550 and noticed an immediate improvement but I found the Epifani seemed to be almost more box than driver.
Recently bought some Berg HD cabs (112+210) but won't be gigging them until Saturday. Fingers crossed.

The whole initial experience put me off D-class. It may have been purely a TC thing but doing some research makes me think that D-class isn't for me.
A shame as I loved the ease etc but not worth the trade off for me with my current gigs.
Heft required

Edited February 24, 2016 by chardbass

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='BassBod' timestamp='1456352085' post='2988288']
I would applaud the use of the word Heft....quite appropriate for describing the indescribable essence of a big old heavyweight amp, valve or otherwise.

For me there is only one real disadvantage to these modern lightweights - getting them fixed. While in production most manufactures seem pretty happy to replace circuit cards/most internal modules - but after those parts are no longer current stock, most likely your amp is heading to the tip. I've got 25 year old amps that are still mostly fixable..even if some components are harder to source or relatively costly. The thought of an expensive five year old amp being written off as unfixable due to its construction concerns me. Especially as they do all appear to be pretty similar.

Having said that, I'm very happy with the Aguilar TH500 and TKS S112 and its a joy to gig with, given the usual awkward load ins/ car sharing / crap parking situations I often work with.
[/quote]

There's allways a solution. For example, let's say that the power amp in my Shuttle brakes and there's no more ICE 500W poweramp modules on the market. I can get one of the new ICE 700W modules and put it in. If i don't have the space i can rehouse the entire amp.

This works with the other components, a bass amp is roughly made with 3 parts, Preamp + Poweramp + PSU, they're all replaceable, if the tech really knows what he's doing and from the looks of the current market these modules will continue to be made, upgraded and refined.

[Phil Starr]

There's nothing inherently wrong with class D amps. Make a decent recording of an Ampeg/Trace Elliot/70's valve amp and play it back through a really good PA and if it had 'heft' then that will still be there, much louder if the engineer likes it that way. The PA will probably be operating on class D amps but they may be capable of 000's of watts. So it isn't class D per se, they certainly don't need to be gutless and they'll handle any amount of bass.

Lack of 'heft' then isn't to do with class D. I don't like the term because it is meaningless but so many people perceive a lack of something. So what are they missing?

Well it could be distortion as some people have said or it could be a non flat frequency response, but emulators should be able to get most of that back. The plugins used in recordings do a fairly good job nowadays, they may not exactly match an Ampeg stack but I'd venture that most of us are capable of being fooled once it is in the mix.

So, if I'm right what we are talking about is the implementation of class D. Plus perhaps some placebo effect (if an amp is heavy enough it will have heft!!!). With class D the designer can offer you almost limitless power at low cost in the amplifier stages. The question is how much capacity to put into the power supply. You are probably only going to need it for peaks, too much power and you'll be blowing the speakers. Why put an expensive power supply in if you are only needing it for a few milliseconds now and again? For PA amps it is much simpler, distortion is the enemy, mainly they operate in a predictable environment so an amp that delivers 300W continuously but will peak at say 1000W makes good sense. I suspect a lot of the power output stages of the current crop of lightweight heads are borrowed from modules developed for PA with a bass orientated preamp/tonestack grafted on. It may well be that some or all of the top five brands of lightweight amp all suffer some restrictions in their abilities to deliver continuous power built into their power supplies or their protection circuits. I can't see how Class D amps are inherently worse than AB amps though.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1456406515' post='2988639']
There's nothing inherently wrong with class D amps. Make a decent recording of an Ampeg/Trace Elliot/70's valve amp and play it back through a really good PA and if it had 'heft' then that will still be there, much louder if the engineer likes it that way. The PA will probably be operating on class D amps but they may be capable of 000's of watts. So it isn't class D per se, they certainly don't need to be gutless and they'll handle any amount of bass.

Lack of 'heft' then isn't to do with class D. I don't like the term because it is meaningless but so many people perceive a lack of something. So what are they missing?

Well it could be distortion as some people have said or it could be a non flat frequency response, but emulators should be able to get most of that back. The plugins used in recordings do a fairly good job nowadays, they may not exactly match an Ampeg stack but I'd venture that most of us are capable of being fooled once it is in the mix.

So, if I'm right what we are talking about is the implementation of class D. Plus perhaps some placebo effect (if an amp is heavy enough it will have heft!!!). With class D the designer can offer you almost limitless power at low cost in the amplifier stages. The question is how much capacity to put into the power supply. You are probably only going to need it for peaks, too much power and you'll be blowing the speakers. Why put an expensive power supply in if you are only needing it for a few milliseconds now and again? For PA amps it is much simpler, distortion is the enemy, mainly they operate in a predictable environment so an amp that delivers 300W continuously but will peak at say 1000W makes good sense. I suspect a lot of the power output stages of the current crop of lightweight heads are borrowed from modules developed for PA with a bass orientated preamp/tonestack grafted on. It may well be that some or all of the top five brands of lightweight amp all suffer some restrictions in their abilities to deliver continuous power built into their power supplies or their protection circuits. I can't see how Class D amps are inherently worse than AB amps though.
[/quote]

My criticism of 'Class D' is exclusively aimed at the consumer-level modules used in the bass head market. Not the pro audio stuff.

[progben]

For me, a low weight cab is pretty important. I don't currently have a car so the potential trade off in 'heft' is easily worth it.

(Aside: I've just bought a TH500 and need a lightweight cab to go with it. Any suggestions for someone on a budget?)

[tauzero]

[quote name='Lw.' timestamp='1456316118' post='2987685']
I don't personally know any bassists that think class-D sounds better than traditional amps but I do know a lot that use them.
[/quote]

I think my class-D Tecamp Puma and lightweight Berg 1x12s sound a bloody sight better than any of the heavyweight gear I've had - which has been Laney and Trace Elliot. And I have never had any desire whatsoever to have a valve bass amp.

[sunburstjazz1967]

A good heavy amp is good and a good light amp is better than a bad heavy amp, a bad light amp is still better than a bad heavy amp because its lighter to carry!

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Has anyone tried running the preamp signal from an amp with perceived lack of heft into the power section of an amp with heft, and vice versa to isolate whether the issue lies in the preamp or power amp or both? In studio equipment, there are preamp designs that are well known to add colouration and 'fatness' to signals run through them (neve 1073 is a good example), so maybe the preamp implementation plays an important role.

[largo]

I think the fact that yer' fecked after carrying a heavy amp makes you appreciate the tone more.

[discreet]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1456500188' post='2989709']
I think the fact that yer' fecked after carrying a heavy amp makes you appreciate the tone more.
[/quote]

Assuming you have enough energy left to play the bass, that is.

[largo]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1456488341' post='2989497']
A good heavy amp is good and a good light amp is better than a bad heavy amp, a bad light amp is still better than a bad heavy amp because its lighter to carry!
[/quote]

But is heft>light because if it is then a bad, heavy amp is better than a bad, light amp.

[chardbass]

[quote name='SubsonicSimpleton' timestamp='1456488487' post='2989505']
Has anyone tried running the preamp signal from an amp with perceived lack of heft into the power section of an amp with heft, and vice versa to isolate whether the issue lies in the preamp or power amp or both? In studio equipment, there are preamp designs that are well known to add colouration and 'fatness' to signals run through them (neve 1073 is a good example), so maybe the preamp implementation plays an important role.
[/quote]

I used to use the pre section of my RH750 only- it never powered any backline. It was sent straight to the monitor engineer and sent back to my beefy monitor. FOH preferred it to my Eden as they said it was much cleaner. I liked the sound very much- it seemed less coloured and more articulate (although I hate describing sound)
It was only when I left that gig and used the TC to power back line that I realised the power stage was lacking.

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1456505434' post='2989825']


But is heft>light because if it is then a bad, heavy amp is better than a bad, light amp.
[/quote]
It's like the God particle maybe?!

[sunburstjazz1967]

In fact I had an old Peavey tnt combo and whenever I carried it from the car I said "oh God...."