Playing stuff wrong

[TimR]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1456687132' post='2991454']

Yeah, but also just cos everything else lifts doesn't mean you should. Contrary motion, counterpoint etc all valid musical devices.

I'm not saying you're wrong as i've never listened to the song you are on about. But musically i like things moving in different directions.
[/quote]

It's just during the chorus. 1:38 on here.

http://youtu.be/vi7cuAjArRs

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1456668622' post='2991177']
The irony is that it has never been easier to be able to learn songs with DAWs and YouTube etc. Back in the old days of listening to tapes or records it was a lot harder. Today you can go on YouTube, convert to MP3, import into some software, LISTEN TO THE ORIGINAL PART WITHOUT NOODLING. Just use your ears and a bit of patience. Then EQ the original bass part out and play along to get the nuances.
[/quote]
Haha, that sounds hugely more complicated than just listening to the recording and working out the part - I wouldn't know where to begin!

[chris_b]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1456736813' post='2991745']
It's just during the chorus. 1:38 on here.
[/quote]

Sounds perfect.

[PaulWarning]

I've played stuff wrong (I Fought the law for example), then realised it and corrected it, did anybody notice, did they f***, I play in an Old Skool punk band if we're doing punky covers I try and get it right (have to cheat sometimes cos I'm not good enough) but if we're punking up a non punk song then I put my own interpretation on it.

[Clarebear68]

IMO, unless it's a tribute act, then it's all down to artistic choices ... and as long as both the band and the audience enjoys it, isn't that what really matters? I used to play in an 80s covers band and we'd often spend weeks of rehearsals getting a song as close as we could to the original and the audience wouldn't really notice and then we'd play a punked up version of something like 'Walk Like an Egyptian' ... as far from the original as you could get (even had a male vocalist) and they'd be asking us to play it 2 or 3 times, they liked it that much.

[BottomE]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1456740732' post='2991787']
Haha, that sounds hugely more complicated than just listening to the recording and working out the part - I wouldn't know where to begin!
[/quote]
hehe you may have a point, though once used to working like this its a doddle. And of course who gives a sh*t anyway? Its only bass and its only a cover tune. I do get nervous of phrases like "artistic choice", "interpretation" cos based on passed experience this has been code for couldn't be arsed to learn it properly.

Edited February 29, 2016 by BottomE

[TimR]

[quote name='Clarebear68' timestamp='1456761938' post='2991971']
IMO, unless it's a tribute act, then it's all down to artistic choices ... and as long as both the band and the audience enjoys it, isn't that what really matters? I used to play in an 80s covers band and we'd often spend weeks of rehearsals getting a song as close as we could to the original and the audience wouldn't really notice and then we'd play a punked up version of something like 'Walk Like an Egyptian' ... as far from the original as you could get (even had a male vocalist) and they'd be asking us to play it 2 or 3 times, they liked it that much.
[/quote]

Yes I've been there too and it's seriously painful.

Especially when one person insists everyone else gets it exactly right and then decides to drop a middle 8 because it's too tricky and they can't be bothered to work on it.

Learn the chord structure, the melody and the form. Most songs are pretty simple, going into minutiae about what the exact original notes are seems OCD.

.

Edited February 29, 2016 by TimR

[BottomE]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1456769214' post='2992077']
Learn the chord structure, the melody and the form. Most songs are pretty simple, going into minutiae about what the exact original notes are seems OCD..
[/quote]
We'll have to disagree. If you can't be bothered to learn the correct notes which notes are you learning? Imaginary ones? Do you miss the ones that take too much effort?

[TimR]

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1456770005' post='2992096']

We'll have to disagree. If you can't be bothered to learn the correct notes which notes are you learning? Imaginary ones? Do you miss the ones that take too much effort?
[/quote]

The vast majority of bass lines follow standard musical theory. There's very little need to learn anything other than the chords. The rest are just passing notes and filling.

[Dad3353]

I still object to this notion that, because it's different to a supposed 'original', it's only down to laziness or bad musicianship. Maybe I've been lucky, but the musicians I've spent over half a century playing with, in very many formations, were far from lazy, and could play the 'original' if required. It was seldom, however, appropriate to do so, for many reasons, not least of which being the totally different band context (no horns, or no gospel choir, or no synths... Lots of reasons...). Maybe some of you play with other players, who can't be bothered, but I'd say that that's more the minority. It's never been my experience. We arrange the stuff we play so that it sounds as best as we can do it with the formation we have, and it works very well. Tchaikovsky did the same when performing his 1812, as did thousands of other conductors, band leaders, groups and solo artists. It's very much a part of being a musician to be able to successfully do so. It's not 'laziness' to interpret music, in my view.

[Dad3353]

An anecdote..? OK, I'll keep it short. I was drumming for a variety dance band in the mid '70s, here in France. Amongst other titles, we had a series of 'Stones' numbers to perform, including 'Satisfaction'. We start rehearsals, and it's not that hard to drum to. Nevertheless, the band leader stopped us all, and asked me to play 'like the record'. Always one to oblige, but I asked him if he was sure; had he really listened to the original drums..? Of course, he replied, so off we went, with me playing the Charlie Watts version as on the single. "Stop, stop, stop..!" cried out the boss. "What the blazes are you playing..?" (loosely translated from the original French, respecting the 'family' nature of the forum...). I had to get him to dig out and play the single to prove that the all-hands-and-feet-together incessant 'thunk-thunk-thunk' was, in fact, on the disk. Even the end-of-line tambourine 'chink-chink-chink' is played by another (Jagger..?). It was mutually agreed from then on that true-to-disk performance was not, necessarily, best, and my, more suitable, version stayed. Give it a keen listen and see if those drums strike you as worth keeping, or if there's scope for 'interpretation'. After all, it's only rock'n'roll, innit..?

Edited February 29, 2016 by Dad3353

[BottomE]

Yeah, you are right it is only Rock N Roll. I've got more picky and sensitive about it with age and its my problem. No-one else ever worries about it. And sure as eggs is eggs, a song might develop with the band and morph into a recognisable hybrid of the original, it still goes down well and everyones a winner. The thing that gets my grumpy goat on is not learning it properly in the first place.

Edited February 29, 2016 by BottomE

[Woodinblack]

We have to adjust quite a lot, because there are only 3 of us, so if the group had more to start with then it tends to feel a bit empty, so we fill it up a bit more (where that is needed).
If I am doing a cover, I learn exactly how the thing goes, then we go and practice it, and we move it around a bit until it becomes our interpretation of it. If we can do anything with it, it stays, if not it goes. Some of the songs are close to the original, some are quite a way away. If anyone wants exact, there is a generally a juke box in the corner.

[BottomE]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1456778055' post='2992244']
We have to adjust quite a lot, because there are only 3 of us, so if the group had more to start with then it tends to feel a bit empty, so we fill it up a bit more (where that is needed).
If I am doing a cover, I learn exactly how the thing goes, then we go and practice it, and we move it around a bit until it becomes our interpretation of it. If we can do anything with it, it stays, if not it goes. Some of the songs are close to the original, some are quite a way away. If anyone wants exact, there is a generally a juke box in the corner.
[/quote]
You've nailed it.

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1456736813' post='2991745']
It's just during the chorus. 1:38 on here.

[media]http://youtu.be/vi7cuAjArRs[/media]
[/quote]Personally, I don't think that it is interesting enough musically for it to make a difference!

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1456505404' post='2989823']
The original was written and performed by Waters.

There are plenty of songs I play E on the seventh fret as that's the direction that the melody is leading.

When you play legato notes under a melody, your note choice is very important.
[/quote]
[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1456687245' post='2991458']
Why? Why is it very important when legato and not staccato? And why when under a melody as opposed to not?
[/quote]
I still want to know the answer to this!

[TimR]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1456782426' post='2992312']


I still want to know the answer to this!
[/quote]

With a basic bass line, the bass steers the whole song. It has a profound effect on the sound of the chords. You can change the inversion depending on your note choice. You can change the mood by playing an ascending line to make it uplifting or a descending line to make it more sad. We play harmony as well as bass.

By legato, I'm thinking probably more single long notes that ring under a whole melody line. Maybe legato is the wrong word.

In the Pink Floyd example I posted, Guy doesn't stick to that bottom B, occasionally he'll play the top B. I think it makes a big difference. I have nothing against 5-string basses. In the verse it sounds spot on and had Waters had a 5-string no doubt he would have played low B.

It's only an example. I'm not hung up on it. Just don't think it fits that well.

[TimR]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1456778055' post='2992244']
We have to adjust quite a lot, because there are only 3 of us, so if the group had more to start with then it tends to feel a bit empty, so we fill it up a bit more (where that is needed).
If I am doing a cover, I learn exactly how the thing goes, then we go and practice it, and we move it around a bit until it becomes our interpretation of it. If we can do anything with it, it stays, if not it goes. Some of the songs are close to the original, some are quite a way away. If anyone wants exact, there is a generally a juke box in the corner.
[/quote]

Whereas, we'll go away with 4 songs. Spend an hour getting the bare bones down. Return and busk through them a few times each and get a feel whether it will work or not. Go away and learn the solos and any significantly important parts.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

We all have busy lives and aren't really interested learning tunes note for note that we may never play. I've done that too many times in other bands.

Communication and experience are the key.

.

Edited March 1, 2016 by TimR

[TimR]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1456782190' post='2992307']
Personally, I don't think that it is interesting enough musically for it to make a difference!
[/quote]

I suspect you're right. And Pink Floyd probably only keep it in for the fans as a classic song.

I only picked up on it because we're going to play it and I wanted to get some ideas for beginning and ending it.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1456772937' post='2992157']
The vast majority of bass lines follow standard musical theory. There's very little need to learn anything other than the chords. The rest are just passing notes and filling.
[/quote]

There are plenty well known songs that would sound completely lame if you just "follow the chords", to pick some random ones out of the air - Tears of a Clown, Run to You, Rio, and the cant-be-arsed-to-learn-it-properly brigades eternal favourite for butchery All Right Now, and then you can throw in for bonus points pretty much every song by Level 42, Rush, the jam and various other bands with notable highly stylistic players, and oh yeah Comfortably Numb (apparently) ...

Edited March 1, 2016 by bassman7755

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1456823791' post='2992486']
There are plenty well known songs that would sound completely lame if you just "follow the chords", to pick some random ones out of the air - Tears of a Clown, Run to You, Rio, and the cant-be-arsed-to-learn-it-properly brigades eternal favourite for butchery All Right Now, and then you can throw in for bonus points pretty much every song by Level 42, Rush, the jam and various other bands with notable highly stylistic players, and oh yeah Comfortably Numb (apparently) ...
[/quote]some songs work with 'standard' bass part (usually ones without a prominent bass line) but try Eton Rifles or In the City without the right bass line and the song will be completely ruined

[chris_b]

In a band a long time ago, we had a keyboard player (usually a great player) who had worked out the run down to Living For The City.. . . . and it was wrong.

It sounded very bad against the bass line (which was right) and the band were very fed up with me when I refused to change the bass part to fit with the keys. Apparently I was being unreasonable by insisting that the key board player played the right line!!!

Know when to make a stand and when it's not worth it. The joys of being in a band.

[TimR]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1456823791' post='2992486']


There are plenty well known songs that would sound completely lame if you just "follow the chords", to pick some random ones out of the air - Tears of a Clown, Run to You, Rio, and the cant-be-arsed-to-learn-it-properly brigades eternal favourite for butchery All Right Now, and then you can throw in for bonus points pretty much every song by Level 42, Rush, the jam and various other bands with notable highly stylistic players, and oh yeah Comfortably Numb (apparently) ...
[/quote]

That's not exactly the 'vast majority' is it? The skill comes in knowing when it can and when it shouldn't be changed. Arguing that a serie of notes in one run is wrong, one that in all probability the original artist didn't even think about when they played it, is a complete waste of everyone's time.

.

[ras52]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1456827266' post='2992530']
That's not exactly the 'vast majority' is it? The skill comes in knowing when it can and when it shouldn't be changed. Arguing that a serie of notes in one run is wrong, one that in all probability the original artist didn't even think about when they played it, is a complete waste of everyone's time.
.[/quote]

Ah, don't assume that the artist knows how it's supposed to go Seriously - the recorded performance may have been improvised, yet gone on to be definitive in the eyes (and ears) of the audience, so that's 'how it goes'.

[TimR]

[quote name='ras52' timestamp='1456828307' post='2992545']


Ah, don't assume that the artist knows how it's supposed to go Seriously - the recorded performance may have been improvised, yet gone on to be definitive in the eyes (and ears) of the audience, so that's 'how it goes'.
[/quote]

I'm now worried that I will now have to buy a 5-string before I'm allowed to play the live version of Comfortably Numb to an audience.