Latency from digital pedals?

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1504962996' post='3368592']
Bumping this to see if anyone has any more thoughts. I found it as I'm concerned about my 8ms Smoothhound working with a planned purchase of a "Less than 7ms" GK Plex....
[/quote]

There's no way 15ms when playing a bass will be an issue. 15ms is about the shortest latency anyone can really detect.

It's like moving a few meters further away from your amp. No big deal.

[dannybuoy]

If you were already a few metres from your cab that gave you a 15ms delay when plugged straight into the amp, then adding an extra 15ms could well be noticeable. I can certainly feel a 30ms delay affecting my timing when recording, 15ms not so much.

[Jack]

Thanks guys, I think I might swap to a wireless with a shorter delay anyway just to make sure...

[Sibob]

Why are you using a wireless?

Si

[fretmeister]

If you can still play in time when you cross a 40ft stage then you don't need to worry about latency at all.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1505222106' post='3370327']
Why are you using a wireless? Si
[/quote]

The Smooth Hound is a great piece of kit for live work, which I can highly recommend (and 8ms latency is frankly neither here nor there for that - we have much bigger issues if our drummer decides to occasionally go off at express train speeds on a track!) But I'm with Si on this, not sure why you'd use a wireless for recording rather than a decent old fashioned cable (which has next to no latency)?

Edited September 12, 2017 by Al Krow

[Jack]

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1505222106' post='3370327']
Why are you using a wireless?

Si
[/quote]
[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1505225688' post='3370361']
If you can still play in time when you cross a 40ft stage then you don't need to worry about latency at all.
[/quote]
[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1505228128' post='3370383']
The Smooth Hound is a great piece of kit for live work, which I can highly recommend (and 8ms latency is frankly neither here nor there for that - we have much bigger issues if our drummer decides to occasionally go off at express train speeds on a track!) But I'm with Si on this, not sure why you'd use a wireless for recording rather than a decent old fashioned cable (which has next to no latency)?
[/quote]

Indeed, I'm talking about playing live. Thanks for all the responses guys!

[Sibob]

I assumed you were talking about live use, my question stands

Si

[Al Krow]

[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1505233456' post='3370418']
I assumed you were talking about live use, my question stands
Si
[/quote]

Well that depends on whether you want to be the bass player who just stands on the spot looking slightly bored and [i]uber[/i] "cool", or want the freedom to be unleashed! Each to their own band

[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1505232316' post='3370413']
Indeed, I'm talking about playing live. Thanks for all the responses guys!
[/quote]

Jack if you're after that unleashed experience, then IMHO you won't find a better combination of quality and price (and a great piece of British engineering, to boot) than the [b][url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/264519-smooth-hound-innovations-digital-wireless-guitar-system/page__st__330__p__3317486__hl__smoothhound__fromsearch__1#entry3317486"]Smooth Hound[/url][/b]. You'll find plenty of love for it from your fellow BCers on that link.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Al Krow

[Sibob]

Totally, I'm just trying to ascertain whether the wireless is actually needed or not.

Si

[fretmeister]

No one needs a wireless unless they are on proper big stages.
I have one though - less to trip over. Awesomely useful in sound checks for wandering around the room.

Sound moves in air at about 1/1000 (1ms) second per foot = roughly 3ms per metre

So every metre you move your ears further away from the speakers you add another 3ms. Distance from the speaker / acoustic drummer is far the biggest and most variable latency issue in a live performance set up. Most wireless units work between 5ms and 8ms so it's really not doing anything.

I've got an 8ms unit, and a L6 G70 which is only 1.5ms

I cannot hear any difference at all. Maybe I could if I was on the stage at Donington - but then I'd have a great monitor set up as well, and I'd be playing in time with my monitors, which would be right in front of me. Distance to my amp or the drummer wouldn't be a factor.

[ped]

To be honest I'd find a wireless more useful 'in the studio' (at home in front of my computer) because nothing annoys me more than sitting down to slap some bass then realising I can't reach my cup of tea and having to unplug, collect said beverage and re-seat. In between these steps my little Sybil will steam my chair and leave me in limbo.

I got rid of an iRig HD2 because there was a tiny bit of latency... I can't remember how much exactly but it was about the same as a wireless. It would't be a problem if I was plugging into an amp but with headphones I'm used to the immediate response and it became really off-putting once I noticed it. Having said that at the time I posted about it and I don't remember many people saying they noticed. iRig didn't have much of a response either, so maybe it was just mine.

[EBS_freak]

Now try with IEMs and see where your 8ms wireless latency combined with digital fx pedals (typically 2-4ms each) and digital desk (the best are around 2ms and under) (and maybe digital plugins - depends upon plugs in transport to and from your desk to the processor) gets you.

And that statement that "most" wireless units are between 5ms and 8ms is woefully wrong... try sub 3ms. If any device is reporting 8ms latency, it would be wiped from my purchase list as a wireless is not having 80% of my latency allowance.

Anything over 10ms direct into the ear is unacceptable -. Ive said it before, Smoothhound with its 8ms latency is flawed from the word go. Yes, it may get you through your pub gigs OK - and thats great, especially considering their pricetag - but beyond that, the specs on the latency front are beyond awful.

Recording with wireless can be pretty useful - especially if your recording environment is noisy on the EMF front. You may say that a decent recording environment is going to be shielded against that - you'd think. I've just recorded at Universal where the operation of the buildings lifts causes noise in the studio. Acoustic treatments was excellent though

Edited September 13, 2017 by EBS_freak

[Dood]

I'm a great fan of lists! I'd love to see digital pedals and hardware measured - to see what the real world figures of all these devices are. I wonder if the manufacturer's figures fluctuate as much as those for amplifier 'ratings'.

I'm sure I could set up a way of measuring latency right here. I might give that a go later on to see what I can come up with.

[ped]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1505307422' post='3370911']
I might give that a go later on to see what I can come up with.
[/quote]

How many milliseconds later?

[Dood]

[quote name='ped' timestamp='1505313140' post='3370956']
How many milliseconds later?
[/quote]

*test timed out*


ha ha

[fretmeister]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1505306468' post='3370894']
Now try with IEMs and see where your 8ms wireless latency combined with digital fx pedals (typically 2-4ms each) and digital desk (the best are around 2ms and under) (and maybe digital plugins - depends upon plugs in transport to and from your desk to the processor) gets you.

And that statement that "most" wireless units are between 5ms and 8ms is woefully wrong... try sub 3ms. If any device is reporting 8ms latency, it would be wiped from my purchase list as a wireless is not having 80% of my latency allowance.

Anything over 10ms direct into the ear is unacceptable -. Ive said it before, Smoothhound with its 8ms latency is flawed from the word go. Yes, it may get you through your pub gigs OK - and thats great, especially considering their pricetag - but beyond that, the specs on the latency front are beyond awful.

Recording with wireless can be pretty useful - especially if your recording environment is noisy on the EMF front. You may say that a decent recording environment is going to be shielded against that - you'd think. I've just recorded at Universal where the operation of the buildings lifts causes noise in the studio. Acoustic treatments was excellent though
[/quote]

I use my Smoothhound without difficulty when performing. I only bought the G70 because of the mental deal Andertons have at the mo.

I'm happy to be out of date on average latency times, and if I am then it makes even less of a difference to the OP.

[Dood]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1505316206' post='3370992']
I use my Smoothhound without difficulty when performing. I only bought the G70 because of the mental deal Andertons have at the mo.

I'm happy to be out of date on average latency times, and if I am then it makes even less of a difference to the OP.
[/quote]

I think that this almost needs a thread of it's own. "The best wireless systems for bass - including best latency figures". I'm also interested in the methods used to get those latency times down as which are the most resilient in a 'noisy' environment. I've tended to stay away from wireless systems for both of these reasons, but I could be swayed!

[Al Krow]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1505316206' post='3370992']
I use my Smoothhound without difficulty when performing.
[/quote]

At risk of turning this into a Smooth Hound appreciation thread +1 to that!