When does a scale become a mode?

[timmo]

If I play an A minor, and use all of the natural notes, I am also playing the notes for a C major. When does it become a mode, as I think I understand that a mode is a scale just starting on a different note, but keeping within the notes of the scale. So if I start a G Major, but start it from F#. Am I playing a mode?

[Hobbayne]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1456854602' post='2992926']
If I play an A minor, and use all of the natural notes, I am also playing the notes for a C major. When does it become a mode, as I think I understand that a mode is a scale just starting on a different note, but keeping within the notes of the scale. So if I start a G Major, but start it from F#. Am I playing a mode?
[/quote]

No I dont think so. Starting from G would make it a Mixolydian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_%28music%29#Ionian_.28I.29

[Dad3353]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1456854602' post='2992926']
If I play an A minor, and use all of the natural notes, I am also playing the notes for a C major. When does it become a mode, as I think I understand that a mode is a scale just starting on a different note, but keeping within the notes of the scale. So if I start a G Major, but start it from F#. Am I playing a mode?
[/quote]

Almost (it would be 'Locrian', I believe...), but modes are not so much a question of where one starts and finishes as which notes are accentuated, or settled upon. Yes, they're all the same notes, but making the VII the 'key' or 'pivot' note for your playing, whether or not you start there, is what makes it 'modal'. It's only really a useful concept in a few musical contexts, though.
Subject to completion, correction and/or contradiction from others; just my tuppence-worth. Hope it helps.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Dad3353

[Grangur]

Simply all scales are Modes. It becomes a different Mode when you play the same note tones but starting at a different note.
Eg starting the CMajor on the D; DEFGABCD is a Dorian mode scale.

[ambient]

If you play a C major scale starting on C, it's the C major scale, or C Ionian mode. If you start on the next note, D, and only play the same notes from the C major scale, then that's the D Dorian mode.

If you repeat the exercise all the way through the notes of the C major scale, then you play the following modes, each has its own characteristic sound.

3rd E Phrygian - has a semitone between the first and second degree, sounds kind of Spanish.

4th F Lydian - has a #4th.

5th G Mixolydian - look at it as a major scale with a flat or minor 7th.

6th Aolean or relative minor scale. So in C major it's A minor.

7th Locrian or minor 7b5, sometimes called half diminished.

It's good to play a one octave major scale starting on whatever note you want. Then play all through each mode, you'll get to hear how each sounds.

Playing a G major scale starting on F# you'd be playing F# Locrian mode, so F#, G, A, B, C, D, E, F#. See why it's called a minor 7b5 with A being the minor 3rd, C the b5, E the minor 7 ?

Edited March 1, 2016 by ambient

[timmo]

Thanks for the replies, and help. I will get stuck into it tomorrow

[leftybassman392]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1456854602' post='2992926']
If I play an A minor, and use all of the natural notes, I am also playing the notes for a C major. When does it become a mode, as I think I understand that a mode is a scale just starting on a different note, but keeping within the notes of the scale. So if I start a G Major, but start it from F#. Am I playing a mode?
[/quote]

As Dad3353 suggested, it's more helpful to think about where the notes fall in the scale. Chords I, IV and V are the big chords in any sequence. You might find it useful to pick a scale sequence and try it out.

For example, your choice of Aminor against a C major parent scale. In C major the I, IV, V chords are C, F, G respectively. In Am I, IV, V are Am, Dm and Em.

It's been said before by myself and others in several threads recently, but it's best to treat each mode as a scale in it's own right: the modal thing is really just a historical convenience for describing how the scales in a modal set relate to each other. In medieval times (specifically, before the advent of Equal Temperament) it was important, but today it doesn't really mean much.

Edited March 2, 2016 by leftybassman392

[keefbaker]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1456858805' post='2992987']
Simply all scales are Modes.
[/quote]
This.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1456854602' post='2992926']
If I play an A minor, and use all of the natural notes, I am also playing the notes for a C major. When does it become a mode, as I think I understand that a mode is a scale just starting on a different note, but keeping within the notes of the scale. So if I start a G Major, but start it from F#. Am I playing a mode?
[/quote]

This ...
[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] it's best to treat each mode as a scale in it's own right: the modal thing is really just a historical convenience for describing how the scales in a modal set relate to each other.[/font][/color][/quote]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]And to clarify ...[/font][/color]

Its determined by what key the song is in. If the tonic note of the song is A then those notes constitute A minor (aeolian mode), if its C then its C major. [u] A scale or mode can only be unambiguously identified within the context of an established key center.[/u] Its completely meaningless to talk about modes vs scales without reference to a key center because the key center gives all the other notes their "function" (i.e. sound).

Edited March 4, 2016 by bassman7755

[Bilbo]

Depends on context, absolutely. Play adifferent bass note and a mode will be something else. We are in a position of absolute power!!!

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='keefbaker' timestamp='1456909222' post='2993344']

This.
[/quote]

Totally incorrect.
Many, many scales in existence do not have any modal origin whatsoever.

The term "mode" applies in 2 situations only:

When discussing, if applicable, the origin of a scale. For example, C Lydian Dominant scale (fits C7#11) happens to be mode 4 of G melodic minor.

When the music being played is modal, that is, has no defined chord progression other than the sound of the specified mode. For example, So What or Impressions (Dorian).

As I've said before, forget about modes altogether as a concept. There's way too much confusion and downright incorrect instruction about it out there.

Chords - chord tones - relevant scales

Edited March 7, 2016 by The Jaywalker

[timhiggins]

I understand the modal Jazz example but if i understand the first point correctly does that mean C Lydian dominant scale
derives from F melodic minor scale ?

[The Jaywalker]

Mistyped! Should have read G melodic minor. Bassist fingers on an iPhone......Amended it now ;-)
Lydian Dominant is the 4th mode of Melodic minor.
However, if you were to consider a C7 chord (CEGBb), add the #11 (F#) and also the 9th (D) and 13th (A) - you get the same notes when you express them as a scale. It's better to think of scales as relating to chords rather than what their modal relationship (if any) is to a percent scale - because very often that modal relationship is irrelevant to the tune.
For example: Bernies Tune is in Dminor for the A sections and contains a Bb7#11. No Fminor involvement of any kind so modal relationships are unhelpful.

Edited March 7, 2016 by The Jaywalker

[CH161]

The OP asked about F# to F# in the G major scale - that would be the Locrian mode.

If he'd asked A through to A in the G major scale (with the F# or raised 6th) then that would be Dorian.

Modes are scales. The main point about them is the relationship they have within the 'Key' of a piece of music.

Our western system favours chords built in triads, I, IV and V being the strong tonal centres to define Key.

With the example of 'So What', the Key signature is that of C major, yet the tonal character has a root of D and the sound is minor.

so in this example chord I (D min) is more normally chord II of C major. We are up one tone from the major Key centre.
It is therefore Dorian because we use chord I, IV and V not as the expected Cmaj (I),F maj (IV) and G maj (V) but D min (I) , G maj (IV) and A Min (V).
These chords all belong to the Key of C major - but we have shifted tonality within the key by one step in the key's scale.

If we were actually in D minor (not modal), we would expect the key to have one flat (Bb), as D min is the relative minor of the key of F major (One flat Bb).

It's all about the Key...Who said theory wasn't fun!

Edited March 9, 2016 by CH161

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='CH161' timestamp='1457563735' post='2999775']
The OP asked about F# to F# in the G major scale - that would be the Locrian mode.

If he'd asked A through to A in the G major scale (with the F# or raised 6th) then that would be Dorian.

Modes are scales. The main point about them is the relationship they have within the 'Key' of a piece of music.

Our western system favours chords built in triads, I, IV and V being the strong tonal centres to define Key.

With the example of 'So What', the Key signature is that of C major, yet the tonal character has a root of D and the sound is minor.

so in this example chord I (D min) is more normally chord II of C major. We are up one tone from the major Key centre.
It is therefore Dorian because we use chord I, IV and V not as the expected Cmaj (I),F maj (IV) and G maj (V) but D min (I) , G maj (IV) and A Min (V).
These chords all belong to the Key of C major - but we have shifted tonality within the key by one step in the key's scale.

If we were actually in D minor (not modal), we would expect the key to have one flat (Bb), as D min is the relative minor of the key of F major (One flat Bb).

It's all about the Key...Who said theory wasn't fun!
[/quote]

Sorry man, but you're way, WAY off the mark here. The point of modal music is that it has no chord structure or key signature. We are categorically NOT in Cmajor for So What: it's D and Eb Dorian. There are no chords I, IV and V present - I have absolutely no idea where you've cooked that up from....In any case, in practice, if a chord V is implied or directly stated it will be V7 as per if the key was D minor.

[CH161]

I'm not getting into this - time to buy a book folks.

[The Jaywalker]

I would suggest you do, yes. Feel free to PM me for some recommendations. Failing that, I can teach Harmony, Theory etc online or by Skype.

Edited March 9, 2016 by The Jaywalker

[CH161]

Wow, I don't know why you feel the need to speak in this tone really.

I was trying to make a simple point. The history of Western music is very clear.

I really don't want to get into an argument about something so uneccesary.

Goodnight.

[The Jaywalker]

[quote name='CH161' timestamp='1457565782' post='2999798']
Wow, I don't know why you feel the need to speak in this tone really.

I was trying to make a simple point. The history of Western music is very clear.

I really don't want to get into an argument about something so uneccesary.

Goodnight.
[/quote]

Er, excuse me??
"I'm not getting into this, time to buy a book"
And I'm the one speaking in a tone? Who the FK do you think you are?
I corrected your post because it was musical nonsense. You demonstrated a small amount of music theory knowledge being incorrectly applied. I'm quite clear about the history of Western Music - over a decades worth of professional experience, a degree and several teaching posts speak to that.

[CH161]

In fairness I wasn't clear - I meant if we want to understand modality etc we're probably better off researching with books.

It's a huge subject and difficult to make a good concise point here on the thread.

I wasn't aiming a comment at you.

[The Jaywalker]

Oky doke, fair enough. I'll retract my harshness :-) Glad we got that cleared up ;-)

[timhiggins]

I was going to ask about modes within a piece with a shifting key centre like 'giant steps' but i think i will stick to thinking of it in terms of scales
and playing by ear as it all gets a little controversial it seems

[The Jaywalker]

Ask away. No controversy at all - Harmony, Theory etc often allow a lot of room for discretion, depending on musical context - but some things are absolute; so there are rights and wrongs.

Giant Steps is a 3-tonic system influenced by the work of influential composer Joseph Schilllinger. It splits the octave into 3 equal parts using an augmented triad, whose notes then become the new key centres. The bridge to Have You Met Miss Jones does the same thing.
In essence, Giant Steps is simply II-V-I 's in 3 keys. Simply....erm... ;-)
It's possible to play the whole progression using the Symmetrical Augmented scale (semitone-minor third) from Bb.
This is a good example to illustrate another corrective point raised above; as this scale is not a mode.

Coltrane himself pretty much just ran digital scale patterns over the progression. Just....;-)

Edited March 10, 2016 by The Jaywalker

[timhiggins]

Thanks .. i do love how informative the folk on this forum can be !
i'm off to look at the Symmetrical Augmented scale now although i suspect 'Giant Steps ' may still prove tricky for me !