lowhand_mike Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 well i said a while ago that our singer was getting worse. well the last gig we did was pretty awful, and while it is wrong to blame just one person for all the mistakes as we all made more than our share i feel alot of them could have been avoided and could be/were attributed to our singer. he has a folder with all the lyrics in front of him on a stand so missing words/verses/chorus is just not on but that happened alot and is very off putting. also the singers job is to be in tune, or at the very least close to in tune which is getting more and more unlikely. and timing is getting worse. we've been doing this for 2 years now so it should be getting better not worse. so theres the back ground, anyway last night we had a little practice, which wasn't great especially as the singer didn't even bring his lyric book so he lala'd his way through most of the songs that we did. after the practice it got "discussed" without saying straight the "you can't sing" simon cowell style which we (lead/drums/and me) felt would be a little unfair/harsh but he didn't get it, just saying we all had an off night (at the gig). all the people who came to see us said the band was good though we did make alot of mistakes which was unusual but the singer can't sing. so now what do we do as the singer just doesn't get it. i have suggested we get a small tape setup to record some practices so we can hear back what it sounds like in the hope that he can hear what he sounds like but will that be enough or do we just have to be straight as i/we can't do another gig like that with people walking out. we have another possible gig lined up but it is in a pub on floor level with the punters and it is always busy there so we won't get away with it. any suggestions? just to clarify i'm not saying i'm perfect by any means but i can at leaast play in time and in tune as can the drummer and lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peted Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 I wouldn't hold any of these conversations behind the singers back. From experience, it can be very daunting to be approached by the rest of your band with an issue that it's plainly obvious they have been conferring about without your knowledge. Be open and honest, but don't be abrasive. Try to bring the subject up in a supportive manner. I would have thought that it is quite strange for someone to actually get worse with practice. Depending on what type of person your singer is, it might be worth either mentioning it to the whole band at rehearsal, or a one-to-one down the pub outside rehearsal, to ask if there are any issues outside the band which are affecting his performance? Suggest that you've noticed recently that he seems to be struggling with the material and ask whether he is unhappy with the songs you are playing or is he having a hard time outside the band which he would like to share? (all sounds very hippy ) Worst thing to do is to exclude him from any discussions with the band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_the_bassist Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 You just need to bite the bullet and say that he's loosin his touch. if worded right, it may kickstart him into lessons, practicin more, learning the songs...or he'll get in a huff and leave! Either way, you'll be better of! It's a kick in the guts, but you gonna have to do it. Be polite and courtious but firm, and you'll be fiiine! Good luck with it mate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Video the gig then all sit round and watch it togther for "anyalysis". If he doesn't say "oh my God I'm all out of tune and missing my ques" you probably have to ask him to leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 He shouldn't have a lyric book IMHO. The singer for the PEs always wants his lyrics to read, but we tell him "no, f*cking learn them" so he tries his best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stylon Pilson Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='lowhand_mike' post='289750' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:03 AM']i have suggested we get a small tape setup to record some practices so we can hear back what it sounds like in the hope that he can hear what he sounds like but will that be enough[/quote] This is definitely a good place to start. The only potential downfall is when he listens to the recording, turns to you, and then says "I sound terrible! Why did none of you gits tell me?!?" S.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='peted' post='289762' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:20 AM']I wouldn't hold any of these conversations behind the singers back. From experience, it can be very daunting to be approached by the rest of your band with an issue that it's plainly obvious they have been conferring about without your knowledge. Be open and honest, but don't be abrasive. Try to bring the subject up in a supportive manner. I would have thought that it is quite strange for someone to actually get worse with practice. Depending on what type of person your singer is, it might be worth either mentioning it to the whole band at rehearsal, or a one-to-one down the pub outside rehearsal, to ask if there are any issues outside the band which are affecting his performance? Suggest that you've noticed recently that he seems to be struggling with the material and ask whether he is unhappy with the songs you are playing or is he having a hard time outside the band which he would like to share? (all sounds very hippy ) Worst thing to do is to exclude him from any discussions with the band.[/quote] when we had our chat last night he was there, we all admit our mistakes when we make them, and if we fluff it he will say start the song again (in practice only) which is fine, i don't mind being told i am off or what ever though telling someone who sings that they can't just feels that bit more personal, i can practice and get better but if your vocals are dropping off then thats really hard to improve on, you can't just tune up you voice. and we or at least the lead guitarist did say last night that he HAS to be in tune but its almost like he doesnt want to admit it was out of tune. i dunno i like the guy but it is holding us back as alot of people who have come to see us won't come and see us again till we get this sorted (ie get a new singer) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedontcarebear Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 I'd kick him out if he was rubbish and didn't even notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stylon Pilson Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='lowhand_mike' post='289773' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:27 AM']i don't mind being told i am off or what ever though telling someone who sings that they can't just feels that bit more personal, i can practice and get better but if your vocals are dropping off then thats really hard to improve on, you can't just tune up you voice.[/quote] Not true. With practise, he can improve. S.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='thedontcarebear' post='289775' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:28 AM']I'd kick him out if he was rubbish and didn't even notice.[/quote] +1 for the same reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 hmmm thing is the band isn't mine i only joined 2 years ago, it's the singers and his brother the rythmn guitarist. Lead has been with them for about 6 or 7 years i think and the drummer about 4. so from what they have said he used to be able to sing ok. i don't know maybe i just need to leave and find something else, though i enjoy playing with the other guys (don't even go there ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Any vocalist who needs the lyrics on a stand at a gig is not up to the job, IMHO. I appreciate that this is a sweeping generalisation, but it's one I'm happy to defend. Tell your vocalist that "It's not really working out, is it?" and get yourself a vocalist who can remember lyrics, sing them in tune, and present the right image for your band. Alternatively, you and your guitarist could learn to sing ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='Happy Jack' post='289794' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:43 AM']Any vocalist who needs the lyrics on a stand at a gig is not up to the job, IMHO. I appreciate that this is a sweeping generalisation, but it's one I'm happy to defend. Tell your vocalist that "It's not really working out, is it?" and get yourself a vocalist who can remember lyrics, sing them in tune, and present the right image for your band. Alternatively, you and your guitarist could learn to sing ... [/quote] welll the guitarist can already sing, and the drummer is an amazing vocalist, and can sing some stuff whilst playing drums but is obviously better at doing one or the other at a time. it is something we have talked about before. maybe i'm just being too polite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernmeister Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 From what it seems to me, its either he's not to keen on the songs that you're performing or he isn't spending enough time on his own practising the songs. My reason for saying this is: Even listening to songs on the radio, sometimes songs you don't like you generally get a hook or melody that you remember & timing generally comes with familiarity from constantly listening to the song/s. The only other thing i can think of is that he maybe having problems at home which doesn't allow him to donate the time & attention to the songs he has to learn. It could be an arm around the shoulder time to see if he's having a problems at home before taking any action, if he's a close friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Sounds like you've got to [i]THAT[/i] point. Time to cut your losses and look for another singer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='Bernmeister' post='289802' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:50 AM']From what it seems to me, its either he's not to keen on the songs that you're performing or he isn't spending enough time on his own practising the songs. My reason for saying this is: Even listening to songs on the radio, sometimes songs you don't like you generally get a hook or melody that you remember & timing generally comes with familiarity from constantly listening to the song/s. The only other thing i can think of is that he maybe having problems at home which doesn't allow him to donate the time & attention to the songs he has to learn. It could be an arm around the shoulder time to see if he's having a problems at home before taking any action, if he's a close friend.[/quote] this did come up last night, as i suggested that maybe over time we have become lazy in our own practicing, certainly i have been practicing less recently possibly because of the down turn in performance generally but when it comes to our rehearsal nights i make few mistakes (yeah i know that sounds big headed but its not ment to be). he says he practices in the car as he does alot of driving so sings along to the CD's we have of all our songs but thats not really the right environment to practice and he's said he can't really practice at home. maybe there's the problem but it is up to him to get it right, we can't do it for him. also the bulk of the songs we do are ones that he has chosen or ones he feels he can sing, nothing gets through that he doesn't like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelk27 Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='lowhand_mike' post='289816' date='Sep 23 2008, 10:56 AM']the singers job is to be in tune, or at the very least close to in tune which is getting more and more unlikely. and timing is getting worse. we've been doing this for 2 years now so it should be getting better not worse. he says he practices in the car as he does alot of driving so sings along to the CD's we have of all our songs ... also the bulk of the songs we do are ones that he has chosen or ones he feels he can sing, nothing gets through that he doesn't like. i dunno i like the guy but it is holding us back as alot of people who have come to see us won't come and see us again till we get this sorted (ie get a new singer)[/quote] First, I'll preface my comments by saying that every band I've worked in has been an autocracy, and when someone hasn't been working out I've sacked them. However, there are a number of themes coming through in what you say, and perhaps a few observations are worthwhile. Over time, as a band works together, there is a progression in either the individual members technical abilities or in their playing understanding of the other members. At its simplest, where you and the other members of the band are improving in either or both of these areas it might be that he has just stood still - but this is being perceived as his performance worsening. From what you say his practice is anything other than ideal - there’s simply no way that his body mechanics, a crucial element in his vocal performance, can be appropriately accommodated when practicing if he’s sitting in the driver’s seat of a car- so it is also possible that, developmentally, he’s regressing. As a singer it's important to be invested in the material you are performing. This can either be as the creator - which definitely assists with memory - or an interpreter. But, if your only connection with material is as the interpreter then the material you select has to be selected not because you enjoy it but because it suits your vocal abilities and style. Although the vocalist is involved in the selection of material, is this material being judged against the correct criteria? Does he, in collaboration with the other members of the band, posses the requisite skills to rewrite and rearrange to suit his abilities? God only knows I enjoy singing along with Freddie Mercury and Bon Scott/Brian Johnson in private, but would never consider singing Queen or AC/DC songs under any other circumstances. This is one of those situations where you need to be direct - which is certainly not the same as being harsh - and tackle this now. If it leads to the demise of the band then simply chalk it up to evolution - as it does sound as though there’s a ready-made three piece here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 got to say thanks guys as there is alot of useful suggestions in here, wether we get rid or give time will have to be seen. noelK i think alot of the songs have been chosen because they 'should' be in his range. wether its a case of us progressing past him i don't know but hadn't considered that. the 3 of us certainly feel that we could do better as a whole and as such are very critical of our own playing. but i see your point on not trying to do stuff outside the vocal range but i dont think there is much there that isnt sorry if i start repeating myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepurpleblob Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='lowhand_mike' post='289750' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:03 AM']well i said a while ago that our singer was getting worse. well the last gig we did was pretty awful, and while it is wrong to blame just one person for all the mistakes as we all made more than our share i feel alot of them could have been avoided and could be/were attributed to our singer. he has a folder with all the lyrics in front of him on a stand so missing words/verses/chorus is just not on but that happened alot and is very off putting. also the singers job is to be in tune, or at the very least close to in tune which is getting more and more unlikely. and timing is getting worse. we've been doing this for 2 years now so it should be getting better not worse. so theres the back ground, anyway last night we had a little practice, which wasn't great especially as the singer didn't even bring his lyric book so he lala'd his way through most of the songs that we did. after the practice it got "discussed" without saying straight the "you can't sing" simon cowell style which we (lead/drums/and me) felt would be a little unfair/harsh but he didn't get it, just saying we all had an off night (at the gig). all the people who came to see us said the band was good though we did make alot of mistakes which was unusual but the singer can't sing. so now what do we do as the singer just doesn't get it. i have suggested we get a small tape setup to record some practices so we can hear back what it sounds like in the hope that he can hear what he sounds like but will that be enough or do we just have to be straight as i/we can't do another gig like that with people walking out. we have another possible gig lined up but it is in a pub on floor level with the punters and it is always busy there so we won't get away with it. any suggestions? just to clarify i'm not saying i'm perfect by any means but i can at leaast play in time and in tune as can the drummer and lead.[/quote] Why? Do you know? Presumably he's getting worse for a reason.... drink, drugs, dodgy women? It would be easier if you knew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='lowhand_mike' post='289750' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:03 AM']any suggestions?[/quote] Yes. Tell him that he is not pulling his weight and that after 2 years it's a f***ing disgrace not to know the words to your songs yet. Time to throw him out. If he gets better it'll be such a long-term gradual thing that from week to week and gig to gig any improvement will hardly be noticeable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='lowhand_mike' post='289788' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:39 AM']i don't know maybe i just need to leave and find something else, though i enjoy playing with the other guys (don't even go there )[/quote] What? Steal the lead guitarist and drummer? I think it's your duty to take them out of a band with a singer who can't sing and doesn't care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artisan Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 i know how stressfull this can be,my own band imploaded due to a lack of commitment from the singer. i had a talk to him about it & true to form he promptly threw this teddy out of his pram,which kinda killed the band off. that was in april. since then he's come to his senses & stopped being a tit & our band is up & running again,with a gig 4 weeks away. so talk to him, be honest & if he chucks a wobbler & storms off in a huff i'm shure that if he really enjoys been in the band he'll sort himself out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='lowhand_mike' post='289750' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:03 AM']he has a folder with all the lyrics in front of him on a stand so missing words/verses/chorus is just not on but that happened alot and is very off putting.[/quote] He probably doesn't remember the lyrics because he subconsciously knows he has a crib sheet to help him out. Ban him from using his folder at rehearsals and he should rapidly improve. Also as said elsewhere record your rehearsals and gigs so he can hear how bad he sounds and take steps to improve! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 One point: The rtm gtrst is his brother...how does he feel about it? If anyone can talk your singer round, it should be his bro. Ermm...it's not the Gallaghers, is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 [quote name='artisan' post='289980' date='Sep 23 2008, 02:10 PM']i know how stressfull this can be,my own band imploaded due to a lack of commitment from the singer. i had a talk to him about it & true to form he promptly threw this teddy out of his pram,which kinda killed the band off. that was in april. since then he's come to his senses & stopped being a tit & our band is up & running again,with a gig 4 weeks away. so talk to him, be honest & if he chucks a wobbler & storms off in a huff i'm shure that if he really enjoys been in the band he'll sort himself out.[/quote] yeah hearing ya, just a bit of a wuss when it come to confrontation. guess we just need to be frankly honest as its making himself look bad up on stage not just us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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