Learning bass. Feel/understanding vs rote learning?

[CletePurcel]

I have started learning bass (I am a guitarist).

I have been going through a couple of books. They concentrate a lot on theory (which is understandable) and the notes and patterns that should be played around various chords. This can get very dry and it is not always obvious why certain patterns and chords are introduced at various stages. They just are.

I have found that I can play the songs with the backing tracks and sight read the notes from the books, but once I get the groove and the song down I can just remember it and can play it back without really thinking. So I then move on to the next song/exercise in the book. My finger strength and timing are improving a lot by doing this and it is good to move on to the next piece/exercise in the book.

My question is should I really do this memorisation and playback or should I concentrate on trying to feel the patterns and scales associated with the chords BEFORE I MOVE ON? As a beginner is it better to just be able to play lots of stuff (which is more enjoyable) or should I not move on to the next lesson until I have 'understood' fully how the notes and patterns relate to each chord that is being played etc. I hope that makes sense. Obviously having the feel/knowledge for which notes go along with which chords is ultimately an essential skill, but the books will take a lot longer to finish if I go down that route now.

I guess my question really is as a beginner will it all gel at some point down the line or should I put the more tedious work in now on making sure I understand why the notes are written along with each chord.

[Grangur]

Interesting question. I'm a bit of a novice too, but to some degree does this not depend on what you want to get from it?

After all, when James James on layer down the bass lines for My Girl he wasn't taking it from a book.

[CletePurcel]

I mainly want to play blues and rock so I guess I want to be able to go to a rehearsal and the songwriter says these are the chords and I can play along with it.

For blues I can already just about do that - I know the I IV V progressions and can play some sort of bassline along with that. I know some classic blues numbers. But for more complex progressions I am not at that stage yet unless it is just root notes and root and 5th type stuff.

[Bilbo]

Systematic approaches work best in the long run. The more chaotic approaches often end up being the long way around.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='CletePurcel' timestamp='1458393205' post='3007214']
I guess I want to be able to go to a rehearsal and the songwriter says these are the chords and I can play along with it.
[/quote]

Youve answered your own question I think - you need the understanding of harmony to do what you want to do. An understanding is important when your looking to put good basslines to original material, if you were just playing typical pub covers then not so much.

My advice - try to fully understand the theory in the book as you go. If you have a burning urge to learn more lines then just put on some tunes you like and try to work out the basslines by ear, this will be much more beneficial than learning lots of lines from this (or any) book. Avoid youtube vids and tabs except to check the accuracy of something youve already tried to learn by ear.

Edited March 19, 2016 by bassman7755

[timhiggins]

I would also get in the rehearsal room as a band at the earliest opportunity as the interaction will bring out the best in you
you will also be able to apply what your learning at home and make sense of it.

[JapanAxe]

To the OP - work through the lessons at www.studybass.com to understand how chords are constructed.

[chris_b]

[quote name='CletePurcel' timestamp='1458392515' post='3007198']
My question is should I really do this memorisation and playback or should I concentrate on trying to feel the patterns and scales associated with the chords?
I guess my question really is as a beginner will it all gel at some point down the line or should I put the more tedious work in now on making sure I understand why the notes are written along with each chord.
[/quote]

You do both. Put in all the tedious technical work now and work on being able to "feel" at the same time. You also have to change your focus and thinking so you're not a guitarist playing bass but a bass player.

Many if us start out having to learn everything at once. we have to learn how to make music, how to play an instrument and how to play with others. Surely as an experienced guitarist, you've already done the groundwork. Playing with other musicians, the music, notes, chords, modes, scales and timing doesn't change. Now you just have to adapt what you already know and how you play it and expand on it as a bass player.

[timhiggins]

You can also draw upon that wealth of music from your hometown 'The Big Easy'

[Jebo1]

It's interesting. I learnt to play by feel, then I worked through the sight reading and the theory to a good level. Then I promptly forgot it all, but I didn't care, because I could play pretty well.

Now I've taken up DB I am working through everything in a sequential and logical manner with a teacher. It's interesting to do it this way. On one hand you perhaps don't consider you're making a huge amount of progress, on the other you're moving through things in a logical manner and building a solid theoretical basis on which to build. That being said, the blues is a music of feeling, so it's not essential to have all that.

[CletePurcel]

Thanks for all the input.

I think I should clarify my role as a 'guitarist'. I play blues lead and not much else. I only know one scale/pattern that I can move up and down the neck (the pentatonic). I rarely play anything that is not in E, A or D. I have learned how to bend/slide notes in the right places and where to end a lick in a given shape. I don't usually really know which notes I am playing.

Now I have decided to seriously learn the bass and pick up more theory and such. So I have started to learn about scales and modes and how chords are constructed which is great.

What confused me about the beginner bass books I have been reading is the huge amount of theoretical information they throw at you at the start. I don't remember this from beginner blues books. So the first chapter on actually playing (it's already chapter 5) in 'Bass for Dummies' goes through a couple of basslines (a simple major and minor shape) and a walking blues line (which is fine for me and relatively easy to play), but then quickly moves on to cover all the various modes in all the keys.

As a beginner do I really need to know how to play the phrygian mode in G# and the lydian in B flat and all the chords associated with those modes? I think not. So I am trying to find the balance between playing and moving through the book's songs which is enjoyable and rote learning the patterns and scales to play in each key (which is less enjoyable). As I am teaching myself I thought I could benefit from others' experiences who have already been down this road.

Maybe I am reading the wrong books, or maybe I should use these chapters as a future reference rather than learn all the various combinations. Unfortunately the books are silent on this.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Sliding shapes up and down the neck without really knowing what notes you are playing beyond maybe the root of the pattern is one of the big pitfalls of guitar/bass, although this easy transposition ability has practical advantages, it can also impoverish you as a musician because it allows you to skip past a lot of essential basic knowledge.

The first thing you really need to concentrate on IMHO is really learning the notes on the neck - advanced concepts are built on basic building blocks. Halfass the foundation and the house you built on it will take longer to build and be structurally unsound.

Try this;

Play open E, sing it and name it;

Next find all the E notes one octave up - 12th fret E string, 7th fret A string, 2nd fret D string - play, sing , name

Next find all the E notes up another octave - 24th fret E, 19th fret A, 14th fret D, 9th fret G - play sing , name

Next up another octave (if you have enough frets) - 21 fret G

repeat the process descending from the highest available E to the lowest.

Once you ingrain this, you have a solid grasp of where you can find the note E, should you need to play it in any context such as
root note of any type of E chord
major third of C major/dominant/aug
minor third of C#minor/dim
perfect fifth of A chords
major seventh of F major 7
minor seventh of F#minor7,F#minor7b5,F#dominant7
etc etc etc

Take the exercise with E and apply it to F,F#/Gb,G,G#/Ab,A,A#/Bb,B,C,C#/Db,D,D#/Eb as well - might take you a few months to really ingrain it, but it is an investment that will pay massive dividends in the long run.

If you restrict yourself to playing just the root and fifth of each chord when playing a bassline, you'll have an average choice of 14-18 notes for each chord if you really know the neck, as opposed to the basic pattern of finding the fifth same fret string below or up two frets and one string up.

[Horizontalste]

If I were starting over again from scratch I'd concentrate mostly on ear training.
Start simple with intervals & build on from there, music theory knowledge is necessary to some degree but not the be all and end all.
If you have a good ear you can pretty much play whatever you hear in your mind with little theoretical knowledge & if it sounds good then who cares why it works.

[ambient]

[quote name='Horizontalste' timestamp='1458486333' post='3007952']
If I were starting over again from scratch I'd concentrate mostly on ear training.
Start simple with intervals & build on from there, music theory knowledge is necessary to some degree but not the be all and end all.
If you have a good ear you can pretty much play whatever you hear in your mind with little theoretical knowledge & if it sounds good then who cares why it works.
[/quote]

What if it doesn't sound good ?

If you know what you're playing, and what you're playing over then it should sound good.

You should have a good all-round knowledge of harmony, and a 'good ear'.

That's what makes a good all rounded musician. In my opinion of course.

[Dad3353]

In my opinion, there's one element that is missing from many (or all..?) of the methods and books out there: patience. It is impossible to learn all of it, all at once, in one go. While one is learning one aspect (any aspect...), it is obvious, really, that the other (many...) aspects will, as yet, be unknown. One has to take it on trust that the conceptor of the book or lesson has this in mind, and that the rest will, i time, be revealed. Meanwhile, patience is required; one risks going too far too fast, and not absorbing the 'meat' of the book (or lesson...). If true understanding is not the goal, then, of course, skipping through will give what it gives, but if more insight is the objective, one should put in the effort and trust that all will be well. Often, a different, complementary book can help, as there can be useful overlap between the systems. No instrument, and even less a whole subject such as Music, can be absorbed rapidly. As has been mentioned above, running is not as fast as walking and crawling can be the best way forward, quite often. Take your time; enjoy the journey. You'll get where you want to go all the quicker.
Just my tuppence-worth.

[ambient]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1458505478' post='3008193']
In my opinion, there's one element that is missing from many (or all..?) of the methods and books out there: patience. It is impossible to learn all of it, all at once, in one go. While one is learning one aspect (any aspect...), it is obvious, really, that the other (many...) aspects will, as yet, be unknown. One has to take it on trust that the conceptor of the book or lesson has this in mind, and that the rest will, i time, be revealed. Meanwhile, patience is required; one risks going too far too fast, and not absorbing the 'meat' of the book (or lesson...). If true understanding is not the goal, then, of course, skipping through will give what it gives, but if more insight is the objective, one should put in the effort and trust that all will be well. Often, a different, complementary book can help, as there can be useful overlap between the systems. No instrument, and even less a whole subject such as Music, can be absorbed rapidly. As has been mentioned above, running is not as fast as walking and crawling can be the best way forward, quite often. Take your time; enjoy the journey. You'll get where you want to go all the quicker.
Just my tuppence-worth.
[/quote]

Patience is a virtue, and vital in learning an instrument. It's also something totally lacking sometimes nowadays.

[Grangur]

A good book was recommended to me. It's not about bass, it's about practising. It's called "The Practising Mind".

Don't buy it. It's a long winded way to tell a simple, but useful piece of information. What it says is the problem most folk have with practice is they aren't focused on the practice at all. Instead, their mind is focused on "the result". The problem with this is in practising an instrument there is no "result". There is no key-turning day on which you become a bassist.

So, instead of focusing on the result, focus on the journey. If you learn to enjoy the journey you will do better and get more out of the learning process.

[Grangur]

Another thing; you mentioned Modes. They have their place, but something I think is probably more relevant to your playing is Diatonic Harmony. You can find this on studybass.com.

Learn this and you'll learn about what notes you should be playing when you play a II, V, I.

[Horizontalste]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1458501653' post='3008143']


What if it doesn't sound good ?


[/quote]

Then your unlikely to play it again & have learnt something.
I'm by no means knocking theoretical knowledge I was just trying to imply that ear training is equally important & often overlooked.

[CletePurcel]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.

For reference I found this quite useful:
[url="http://www.scottsbasslessons.com/bass-tips/essential-tips-to-maximise-your-practice-time.html"]http://www.scottsbas...ctice-time.html[/url]

He basically says if you practise an hour a day, say, to break up the time into 3x 20 minute blocks. So I am proposing to spend 20 minutes revision of previous lessons in the books (including scales and arpeggios), 20 minutes going through the next part of the book (so I feel some progression and don't get bored), and 20 minutes transcribing songs that I like. I think this will balance out the grind and the fun stuff for the time being.

On the memorisation of patterns and scales this was really useful:
[url="http://www.scottsbasslessons.com/bass-lines-grooves/shapes-on-bass.html"]http://www.scottsbas...es-on-bass.html[/url]
[url="http://www.scottsbasslessons.com/bass-lines-grooves/shapes-on-bass-2.html"]http://www.scottsbas...-on-bass-2.html[/url]

I think I am going to sign up for this guy's online course material.

Edited March 21, 2016 by CletePurcel

[thebassist]

Yes, scottsbasslessons.com is a great resource - if you've not already seen it, this modes video is a particularly good lesson in my opinion.

http://www.scottsbasslessons.com/scotts-backstage-bonuses-area/modes-revealed-mini-course

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='CletePurcel' timestamp='1458558174' post='3008487']
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.

For reference I found this quite useful:
[url="http://www.scottsbasslessons.com/bass-tips/essential-tips-to-maximise-your-practice-time.html"]http://www.scottsbas...ctice-time.html[/url]

He basically says if you practise an hour a day, say, to break up the time into 3x 20 minute blocks. So I am proposing to spend 20 minutes revision of previous lessons in the books (including scales and arpeggios), 20 minutes going through the next part of the book (so I feel some progression and don't get bored), and 20 minutes transcribing songs that I like.
[/quote]

Sounds like a good plan.