Volume vs Signal

[Mykesbass]

I'miss puzzled. I'very always been interested in the posts by our speaker experts regarding watts and volume, but yesterday I experienced a strange anomaly. My band did a recording session - fully live. I use two basses to get two distinct tones. Bass two sounded WAY louder in the room so I asked the engineer if I needed to roll some volume off. He amazed me by saying the signal he was getting was in fact a little lower. What's going on her then?

[Truckstop]

I'd guess Bass 2 has more presence in certain frequencies which made it 'sound' louder than bass 1.

[Phil Starr]

Simples.

our ears don't hear all sounds at the same volume. We are very sensitive to sounds in the middle of the human voice range and very insensitive to the extremes of frequency. The engineers meters are equally sensitive to all sounds within their operating range. You are interested in how your bass mixes in with the other instruments, they are only interested in recording the bass at the optimum level. They'll mix you in and adjust your volume later.

If one sound had a lot of mids you would hear that as louder and want to turn down to match the drums or whatever. If the other sound had a predominance of bass then its levels would likely be quite high and his meters would register that as overloading and leading to distortion. He could turn the gain down on the desk of course but if he was happy with the levels he wouldn't want you changing anything.

You can hear how perceived volume changes with frequency by just moving the slider away from the centre here http://plasticity.szynalski.com/tone-generator.htm

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1458551178' post='3008400']
I'd guess Bass 2 has more presence in certain frequencies which made it 'sound' louder than bass 1.
[/quote]+1. All the engineer has to go by is a meter or LED that shows a voltage input. It doesn't show the frequency content that makes up said voltage. Why that matters can be seen in an equal loudness chart.

[Mykesbass]

Thanks for these answers. I was aware of the whole "mid cutting through" philosophy, but am shocked at just how noticeable this actually can be! Second bass was so loud in the room it was a bit disruptive!

[Gottastopbuyinggear]

Out of interest, what were the two basses?

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Gottastopbuyinggear' timestamp='1458895283' post='3011861']
Out of interest, what were the two basses?
[/quote]
Both P types - bass 1 is a Shuker 5 string fretless with a Nordstrand pickup, and a US parts build with a Kent Armstrong pickup.

[gillento]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1458565926' post='3008589']
Thanks for these answers. I was aware of the whole "mid cutting through" philosophy, but am shocked at just how noticeable this actually can be! Second bass was so loud in the room it was a bit disruptive!
[/quote]

Maybe the room was amplifying certain frequencies predominant in the sound the second bass way louder than those of the first bass who has less of these freqs.

I have a similar issue in one of my band's rehearsal rooms. When I play a C, it sounds very loud in that room, whereas the A sounds very quiet.
On the meter (an in other rooms) every note is equally strong.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='gillento' timestamp='1458897018' post='3011875']


Maybe the room was amplifying certain frequencies predominant in the sound the second bass way louder than those of the first bass who has less of these freqs.

I have a similar issue in one of my band's rehearsal rooms. When I play a C, it sounds very loud in that room, whereas the A sounds very quiet.
On the meter (an in other rooms) every note is equally strong.
[/quote]
Interesting point - the room was well insulated - could that have exaggerated the mids?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1458897359' post='3011878']
Interesting point - the room was well insulated - could that have exaggerated the mids?
[/quote]If you mean the room was well damped with absorbent material that would reduce the mids and highs. Damping becomes less effective as frequency goes down and wavelengths become longer. However, while the actual level of highs and mids are reduced with damping, they'll sound more prominent, because you're hearing more of the direct sound from the speaker and fewer reflections, which smear the tone.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1458907359' post='3012020']
If you mean the room was well damped with absorbent material that would reduce the mids and highs. Damping becomes less effective as frequency goes down and wavelengths become longer. However, while the actual level of highs and mids are reduced with damping, they'll sound more prominent, because you're hearing more of the direct sound from the speaker and fewer reflections, which smear the tone.
[/quote]

Fascinating - I always enjoy your pearls of wisdom Bill, thanks!

[Dan Dare]

That's interesting, Bill. Could it explain why I sometimes find that I don't like the sound of my rig on stage, but that if I go for a walk (courtesy of the wireless) whilst playing, it sounds fine in the room/mix whilst the sound I like on stage doesn't work in the room?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1458920132' post='3012140']
Could it explain why I sometimes find that I don't like the sound of my rig on stage, but that if I go for a walk (courtesy of the wireless) whilst playing, it sounds fine in the room/mix whilst the sound I like on stage doesn't work in the room?
[/quote]That's probably more related to boundary reflection sourced cancellations that can occur close to the speaker but disappear as you move further away. I always set my tone while standing on the dance floor. If it sounds good on stage as well fine, but if not I just live with it.