Kevin Dean Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 So I gave all of the band a diary & asked them to put all the dates they couldn't do in them . Yesterday I booked 12 gigs with several pubs & let the band know , Only to get a text from the guitarist to let me know that He couldn't do 5 of them..grrrrrrr!!!!! He expected me to phone him while I was in front of the landlord booking the gig to see if He was available. I'm thinking of turning the band into a Cooperative ( mainly having a list of guitarists ) does anyone else do this & do you think He has a right to object ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) very very very annoying, we have a google calender that all the band can access, works most of the time, our singer insists on a normal diary as well so he cocks up occasionally but he does most of the bookings, so he has to sort out his own mistakes, all I can say is guitarists are the easiest members to replace, and no, he has no right to object if you made it clear that band calenders need to be up to date as you're booking gigs, Edited March 22, 2016 by PaulWarning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil.c60 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) I left one band because of this (a shame, it was a decent band). We had an on-line diary on a hidden page of our website for exactly this purpose.The singer would [u]never[/u] keep his up to date and when challenged because it was costing us gigs said that we should just take the bookings and then cancel them if he couldn't do it. When I pointed out that the bookings would collapse once we were seen as "unreliable" he through teddy out of the cot so I packed it in. The band lasted one more gig (which was already arranged) and then folded. You need to sort it out one way or the other or things will unravel fairly quickly. Edited March 22, 2016 by phil.c60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 there's a similar thread going on about unreliable people in regards to looking for a new band, I can't stand unreliable people (unfortunately like bad time keepers they'll never change) it's just plain bad manners to keep letting people down so I know your pain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman65 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Hi, It's only common sense to communicate with each other regularly, I hold the main diary and have the whole year's gigs on computer which I email to the band and if anyone books a holiday or weekend away they ring me and I take those dates out of the diary and re-email to all so we all know what the other is doing, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 [quote name='Bassman65' timestamp='1458661849' post='3009581'] Hi, It's only common sense to communicate with each other regularly, I hold the main diary and have the whole year's gigs on computer which I email to the band and if anyone books a holiday or weekend away they ring me and I take those dates out of the diary and re-email to all so we all know what the other is doing, [/quote]yeah but any system relies on band members keeping it up to date, it just seems beyond some people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockfordStone Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 its ok, my band used to agree to dates then tell me the day before they now couldn't do the gig.... that's awkward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 I have zero tolerance for this. I sacked a brilliant pro drummer last year because he repeatedly did this. I would just be totally straight with the guitarist and tell him if that's the way he wants to work your going to have to line up another guitarist and give him priority if he plays by the rules. Guitarists are easy to find but be aware that really good team players are harder to come across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len_derby Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) I hate this kind of situation. If you have taken on the job of booker it's your reputation that gets damaged when having to cancel or renegotiate with the landlord. It's happened to me before and I wont tolerate it anymore. Assuming you've collected band member's diary details and they've made commitment-type noises. It sounds like you've done that. Edited March 22, 2016 by Len_derby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger2611 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 Our band had a policy of if a gig was booked and someone then decided they couldn't do it then it was their job to ring the venue, apologise, explain and book another date with the venue...I think that is a fair policy. Why should you do all the hard work only for a lazy guitarist to go and create a load more for you. I broke my arm the other year and I was still made to ring round and do the grovelling, despite a couple of months notice we still lost two venues who wouldn't tolerate bands cancelling gigs...as the above post says it is very easy to damage your reputation and very hard to recover it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acidbass Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Yep - like toothpaste coming out of the tube, once your reputation is damaged you will not be able to recover it with agents in venues. Is it only your guitarist who has this issue, out of your whole band? If the others feel the same as him then maybe the band isn't the right one for you. I couldn't be in a band if I was fighting an uphill battle to co-ordinate gigs. If it were me and it was only the guitarist who has an issue, I would definitely get a dep sorted. Explain to him that you have to take whatever gigs are offered and that you don't want the rest of the band members to ultimately lose out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 As someone said above zero tolerance for this. Sack him. He's not able to be in a band. Don't care how good he is. Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stylon Pilson Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Assuming that this is a covers band we're talking about, then step one is definitely to see if you can find a dep who can do those 5 gigs, with the promise of potentially more in the future. This will make it clear to the guitarist that the band is not going to tolerate dead weight, and if he can't keep up, then the band will move on without him. For originals bands who are gigging "for the exposure", the situation is slightly more complex. Finding a dep isn't so straightforward. In this scenario, it might be worth considering changing the band lineup in a way that means that the band can still gig in some capacity if the guitarist can't make it - maybe adding a second guitarist or a keyboard player. S.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 [quote name='Len_derby' timestamp='1458666961' post='3009685'] I hate this kind of situation. If you have taken on the job of booker it's your reputation that gets damaged when having to cancel or renegotiate with the landlord. It's happened to me before and I wont tolerate it anymore. Assuming you've collected band member's diary details and they've made commitment-type noises. It sounds like you've done that. [/quote] Yeah, I hate that it's you who looks like an idiot because someone else screws up. We use an online calendar, but I only use that as a guideline, to block some dates out, but I still confirm with everybody before agreeing 100% to a gig. We have a chat group on whatsapp for that and it generally works fast. It's still more convoluted than necessary but it minimises cancellations because someone is a dick. Most people who never book gigs don't realise just what a thankless job that is, and I hate when lightheartedly they come back "oh, I forgot I needed to go away that weekend"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 [quote name='Roger2611' timestamp='1458669079' post='3009709'] Our band had a policy of if a gig was booked and someone then decided they couldn't do it then it was their job to ring the venue, apologise, explain and book another date with the venue...I think that is a fair policy. Why should you do all the hard work only for a lazy guitarist to go and create a load more for you. I broke my arm the other year and I was still made to ring round and do the grovelling, despite a couple of months notice we still lost two venues who wouldn't tolerate bands cancelling gigs...as the above post says it is very easy to damage your reputation and very hard to recover it [/quote] I have wanted to do that... but there are some members I would not trust much to do a good job of it, and they tend to be the ones more likely to have to cancel. I don't want to risk losing further bookings with a venue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 In both bands, the band leader books the gigs and we use a dep for anyone who can't do the gig. Everyone is in at least 1 other band so deps are no problem for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) If the guitarist can't make five out of twelve gigs it really makes me wonder what his reasons for not doing them are. I bet they're pathetic. The great thing about the outfit I'm with at the moment is that everyone prioritises the band - and so far there has only been one cancellation - due to bereavement, which is fair enough, imho. Otherwise the band comes first, which is why we're gigging on Saturday, Sunday and Monday this weekend. Edited March 23, 2016 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 [quote name='Kevin Dean' timestamp='1458656553' post='3009485'] So I gave all of the band a diary & asked them to put all the dates they couldn't do in them . Yesterday I booked 12 gigs with several pubs & let the band know , Only to get a text from the guitarist to let me know that He couldn't do 5 of them..grrrrrrr!!!!! He expected me to phone him while I was in front of the landlord booking the gig to see if He was available. I'm thinking of turning the band into a Cooperative ( mainly having a list of guitarists ) does anyone else do this & do you think He has a right to object ? [/quote] This is what happens when people can't use a diary...him, not you. All he had to do is update the diary and you shouldn't be expected to second guess his plans...altho I do tend to do exactly that, as the guys I use can be very busy...so I always say I'll come back and confirm.. As for running deps... good idea, but a lot of people are precious about it so tread carefully. They'll see it as a power grab or somesuch... diplomacy is required. Runnind bands of deps can be a lot more about the money than being a band. Personally I think it can work, but it depends who you use and their level of professionalism AND where your band is in their list of 'priorities'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Dean Posted March 24, 2016 Author Share Posted March 24, 2016 Like JTUK said diplomacy was required . I turns out one of the band had only told me about other band commitments & not other stuff , two of the band have awkward shift work , but I have pointed out that I want to gig as much as possible & they are cool with that . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike257 Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 For another perspective on this - I couldn't just give a bunch of yes/no dates and it be that simple. I have a young family (2 and 4 year old boys) and a missus with a teaching job that gives her very little flexibility because she's got a timetable to stick to. To make myself available, I have to make sure the kids have childcare arranged and often that someone else is around to drop them off or pick them up as needed too. I'm a freelance sound tech and musician so have to juggle this on a daily basis. It wouldn't be as simple as "these dates are free, these dates are not". I don't know your guitarist's circumstances but there might be reasons why he can't just block out dates. Having said that, he should be communicating that to you, and I don't know of many working bands that don't use deps to keep the gigs rolling when regular members are unavailable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanrock Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 [quote name='Kevin Dean' timestamp='1458656553' post='3009485'] So I gave all of the band a diary & asked them to put all the dates they couldn't do in them . Yesterday I booked 12 gigs with several pubs & let the band know , Only to get a text from the guitarist to let me know that He couldn't do 5 of them..grrrrrrr!!!!! He expected me to phone him while I was in front of the landlord booking the gig to see if He was available. I'm thinking of turning the band into a Cooperative ( mainly having a list of guitarists ) does anyone else do this & do you think He has a right to object ? [/quote] Yep. Been there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Dean Posted March 24, 2016 Author Share Posted March 24, 2016 (edited) [quote name='mike257' timestamp='1458817572' post='3011124'] For another perspective on this - I couldn't just give a bunch of yes/no dates and it be that simple. I have a young family (2 and 4 year old boys) and a missus with a teaching job that gives her very little flexibility because she's got a timetable to stick to. To make myself available, I have to make sure the kids have childcare arranged and often that someone else is around to drop them off or pick them up as needed too. I'm a freelance sound tech and musician so have to juggle this on a daily basis. It wouldn't be as simple as "these dates are free, these dates are not". I don't know your guitarist's circumstances but there might be reasons why he can't just block out dates. Having said that, he should be communicating that to you, and I don't know of many working bands that don't use deps to keep the gigs rolling when regular members are unavailable. [/quote] I agree but when a venue wants to book a years gigs it doesn't help , sometimes you have to be honest & just can't work with certain musicians just because of their circumstances ,when my Son was born & because of my new job I stopped gigging because I knew I couldn't commit to bookings ,I knew a band wouldn't want to hear " I might be able to do it ". Edited March 24, 2016 by Kevin Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 [quote name='Kevin Dean' timestamp='1458819552' post='3011160'] I agree but when a venue wants to book a years gigs it doesn't help , sometimes you have to be honest & just can't work with certain musicians just because of their circumstances ,when my Son was born & because of my new job I stopped gigging because I knew I couldn't commit to bookings ,I knew a band wouldn't want to hear " I might be able to do it ". [/quote] it's tough, but that's how it is, yes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
police squad Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Booking gigs is a thankless task. I've been doing it for nearly 30 years (on and off). I now play in a very established local band but it's the slightly younger members that struggle with remembering to tell me when they can't gig. (often it's the G/F that decides this lol) I do have deps lined up but I'd always rather take the complete band out. Communication is the key. I do keep asking them, what dates can't you do etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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