Bilbo Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 I think it is an important point. The influence of a player is often determined not by their ability but by the levels of exposure they enjoy because of the gig they have. When Paul Chambers was doing the Miles gig (1955-1963), he was all over the Jazz scene recording hundreds of sessions with everybody. When he left the Miles band, the sessions dropped like a stone and Ron Carter, Pc's replacement in the Miles bass chair, was the first call guy. Was this about the players or the reflected glory of recording with a Miles sideman? I know what I think. The thing is, a lot of influential players are in no way the 'best' players, they just have the highest profile gigs. Sometimes this lines up but, often, they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah thomas Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 So, Goldsby is good as far as it goes, but it sounds like another book may be needed to honour European players? Rob, is this a project for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtroun Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1459668210' post='3018422'] The thing is, a lot of influential players are in no way the 'best' players, they just have the highest profile gigs. Sometimes this lines up but, often, they don't. [/quote] I suppose it's possible, but when Paul Chambers played with Miles, he was pretty much the go-to guy because he was the best. You could argue that Sam Jones (who arrived a little later on the scene) and Doug Watkins were at a similar level but Miles could pick and choose, while I guess Oscar Pettiford and Ray Brown, being a little bit older, wouldn't be able to be bossed around by Miles and probably wanted too much money so were not an automatic choice. I would consider Paul Chambers' decline in demand as a combination of his heavy drug use giving him a reputation, and a steadier gig with the Wynton Kelly trio changing his availability. He's still on a fair few sessions after Miles and died in 1969. Ron Carter has done absolutely stacks of work after leaving the employ of Miles Davis, but by the time Dave Holland started playing with Miles, the apprenticeship system, long band engagements and the Great American Songbook were all becoming less relevant. To reiterate something I said earlier with regards to John Goldsby, the idea of a 'jazz tradition' only really works up until the end of 1960s, because jazz's relevance to mainstream American popular culture started to really dry up by then. Since that time, there have been plenty of developments but they have tended to have a life of their own and become subgenres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencer.b Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Absolutely spot on mtroun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Paul Chambers discography dropped off heavily after he left Miles (see the discography in my book 'Mr. P.C. the life and music of Paul Chambers'). If you listen to the recordings he did do, however, there is no tailing off of his ability. He was still practising when he was in the hospital with the TB that killed him. His recordings are strong right until the end and there are no substantive stories of unreliability. I just think that, when he left Miles, he inadvertently cashed in his best bargaining chip. Also, the style of bass playing was changing and PC didn't move with the times so got left behind. Was he the best? I don't think so, if I am honest. He was important as he was the most widely heard. Being the best is no guarantee of anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencer.b Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Who was the "best" then bilbo? What is it with Internet forums ,the recommendation of a fantastic book has ended up with pops foster,Paul chambers and Larry grenadier ( for me the best players of there respective generations) being slagged off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jaywalker Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 I haven't heard any slagging off of any players at all... IMHO, Ray Brown, PC and Scott laFaro are the tree trunks. By that, I mean that pretty much everyone has a bit of each in their playing somewhere. I have no specific stylistic desire to play or sound like Ray or PC; but I do to a degree because their influence was so great on all of us. Pops was undoubtedly one of the main bassists of his generation - and ergo historically significant - but a pretty poor bassist by later standards. It's all relative, in a way. Larry is hugely influential today - in my mind because of his exposure and the relative achievability of his sound/licks/style for young players. The current bass fad seems to be for turning the clock back 50 years. Whatever...it'll go in cycles like it always does I suppose. I think what's important here is discussion and openness. Without prejudice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 [quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1459848861' post='3020143'] Also, the style of bass playing was changing and PC didn't move with the times so got left behind. [/quote] I think that this is a good point. Bass playing is subject to fashion as much as other musical styles and when Miles formed the second quintet that included Ron Carter this became the sound that a lot of people wanted, especially as the change was so quick. I still find it amazing that there's only 10 years between Relaxin' and Miles Smiles - both fantastic albums but very different. For me, Ron Carter and Jimmy Garrison are both examples of great players who, while arguably not absolutely first on the list of "bass players' bass players" have been instrumental in changing the way that a jazz rhythm section sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencer.b Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 (edited) You make some good points jaywalker , I not sure how achievable larry's incredibly strong time and complex rhythmic language is , like you say it's cyclical but I would say that some of the old school guys such as Mcbride ,Rodney whittaker ,carlos henriquez play with a rythmic and harmonic fluency I don't hear on the old records. PC didn't move with the times although his his thing is in some ways more sophisticated than than ron and jimmy, PC was only 2 years older than ron and was so so prodigious in his early 20s You guys are right the discussion is all good Edited April 6, 2016 by spencer.b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtroun Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 'Best' is subjective. Best from a bass players perspective, or from other musicians' perspective? Influence is also pretty hard to measure because it's not straight cause and effect. Players are influenced by external factors as well - sometimes musicians work on certain things to meet the needs of other musicians they work with. All food for thought. Bringing it back to practice, motivation and inspiration, we're never far away from a great recording to ignite our interest. What have people transcribed recently? What tunes are they learning? I've transcribed the piano solo from Bolivia by Cedar Walton (on 'Eastern Rebellion') and have been learning it on the bass. I've also been learning some tunes that a friend of mine and I agreed to work on for the next time we play together. There's lots of other stuff I've been working on as well but I don't want to go into too much detail (I'll bore everyone to tears!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencer.b Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 Just been doing a tour of really hard ( for me anyway) tunes and I suggested we play a standard or two so I've been taking the head on I Loves You Porgy, works really well on the bass especially in F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jebo1 Posted April 10, 2016 Share Posted April 10, 2016 (edited) I went to a car boot sale and got a few Morrisey albums, Sketches of Spain by Miles, East Bay Grease by Tower of Power, Regulate by Nate Dog and Solid Air by John Martyn. All good, all different and all fascinating to listen too from a bass players perspective. Oh, and I got a great album by The Apples which is all DB based funk. Edited April 10, 2016 by Jebo1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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