12" Tones

[AndrewJordan]

Just curious about this. There seems to be a lot of love on here for 12" drivered cabs. I have heard plenty of 10s and 15s but never knowingly heard 12s. Can anyone describe the typical sound of a modern 1 or 2x12 cab?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

There is no 'typical sound' based on driver size alone. This subject is beating a long dead horse.

[AndrewJordan]

Hi Bill, I've spent a lot of my life beating dead horses so why stop now Of course you're right so I could try rephrasing the question. We all have sounds in our head (well I do) that we associate with particular cab types so do the modern 12" equiped cabs have any particular voicing associated with them?

[Guest bassman7755]

There is probably more variation in sound between different makes and models of drivers of the same size than there is between different size drivers in the same product range.

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]We all have sounds in our head (well I do) that we associate with particular cab types[/font][/color][/quote]

Stick around on this forum and you will soon get that notion beaten out of you

[taunton-hobbit]

I've used all sorts/sizes over the years - I'd never use a 12" for anything other than mid(ish).......

[JTUK]

I'll give it a go....
I like the tightness of typical 10's and dislike the flubbiness of typical15's.

People will say this is outdated but you'll hear this pidgeon-holing in plenty of bass rigs
so whilst it may not be absolute, it could be typical.

I use a 212 underneath a 210 and that works well for powerhandling and a fullness of sound.
I prefer 2x210 typically but the 212 underneath just underpins it a tad better.

I see no reason to go for a typical 15 myself... so a 12 is a good compromise.
2x12 is a solid cab set-up and a better carry than a 2x210 but I prefered my 2x210 from a sound POV.
The 212+210 is just a bit mor capable power-wise.

So yes, I have 12" and 10" cabs depending on the gig and A and B rigs.

[Lozz196]

Apparently different sized speakers have no specific sound - I can`t disagree with those that know far more than me on this. However it does seem that manufacturers of speaker [u]cabs[/u] voice them in specific ways. Cabs with all 10s seems to be tighter and more focused, cabs with 15s seem to be warmer and concentrate more on lows than highs. I`ve had a good few rigs with 210s & 115s and in all cases, through all brands, the 210s were toppier and more focused than the 115s of the same range. Cabs with 12s seem to be the middle ground, with the makers covering most of the sonic area with these.

[Tdw]

manufacturers often put 2x10 speakers in a smaller box than a 1x15, this is probably why 15 loaded cabs generally sound bassier and fuller than 2x10s. I think the ratio of "total speakerage" to "box size" is a better rough guide than speaker size itself.

Also if people expect a bassy 1x 15 and middy/toppy 2 x10 its probably in the manufacturers interest to conform to these expectations somewhat.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Tdw

[AndrewJordan]

Seems like the horse is still kicking! Cheers guys! This is the sort of thing I was after, subjective opinion. People’s real world experience can tell you a lot more than theory.
I am not quite as ignorant regarding speakers as my first post may suggest. One of my reasons for asking is that I have been considering building one of Bill’s Simplexx 212s for a while now.
I know that speakers of many differing sizes can produce a relatively flat response on axis in the correctly tuned box. But a lot of what we hear from our cabs on stage is often heard from a position nowhere near on axis. From that perspective, of the commonly available formats the 10” equipped cabs (comb filtering aside) probably give us the best chance of hearing most of what the audience is hearing from the cab.

[Beer of the Bass]

I think the current enthusiasm for pairs of 1x12" cabs is just because they're a useful combination of size, weight and output. I can't really hear a common tone across them.

[warwickhunt]

I've heard some truly awful, thin/boxy sounding 12's and some thunderous, deep 12's (inc' in that are 2x12's as well). Likewise I've heard flabby 15's and 15's that could shatter glass... and as for TENs!

I have to agree that it is pointless generalising because there are as many exceptions to the rule (10's toppy, 15's bottom, 12's middy) as there are obey the rule. It's good fun trying them all out though to come to this conclusion.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='AndrewJordan' timestamp='1458766285' post='3010750']. From that perspective, of the commonly available formats the 10” equipped cabs probably give us the best chance of hearing most of what the audience is hearing from the cab.
[/quote]Only if they're placed vertically, and very few are. A 1x15 will have wider dispersion than a horizontal 2x10.

[AndrewJordan]

I agree Bill! And I understand why you edited my quote to make that point

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1458762587' post='3010678']
Apparently different sized speakers have no specific sound - I can`t disagree with those that know far more than me on this. However it does seem that manufacturers of speaker [u]cabs[/u] voice them in specific ways. Cabs with all 10s seems to be tighter and more focused, cabs with 15s seem to be warmer and concentrate more on lows than highs. I`ve had a good few rigs with 210s & 115s and in all cases, through all brands, the 210s were toppier and more focused than the 115s of the same range. Cabs with 12s seem to be the middle ground, with the makers covering most of the sonic area with these.
[/quote]

Our 10CR cabs are warmer and fatter sounding than any other cabs we've made, be they 10"s, 12"s, or 15"s. Some of our 12XN cabs can do much better lows than many of our old 15" cabs. Our 12XN cabs have more clarity than any 10" I've come across.

It's nothing to do with the nominal cone diameter and everything to do with a ton of different design decisions to the cone, suspension, motor, enclosure, crossover and so on.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='AndrewJordan' timestamp='1458754149' post='3010569']
Just curious about this. There seems to be a lot of love on here for 12" drivered cabs. I have heard plenty of 10s and 15s but never knowingly heard 12s. Can anyone describe the typical sound of a modern 1 or 2x12 cab?
[/quote]

There are plenty of exceptions to the rule but cone size isn't an insignificant factor in speaker design. Neither is it the only one.

If all other things are equal then a big cone is going to be heavier, floppier and will move more air than a small one. It's possible with bigger magnets, better suspensions different cone materials and so on to overcome some of the limitations of very large cones or very small ones but often with the introduction of new compromises. For those of us using midrange (in price) mass produced drivers the compromises tend to be similar and the sounds of speakers of particular sizes, whilst varied, tend to clump together. This is then exaggerated by the way manufacturers tend to make 'me too' products.

With current technology (improved speaker materials, cheap high powered bass amps and better PA's) you can get more sound out of smaller speakers so that the main reason for huge high efficiency speakers is long gone. A couple of 12's, even fairly modest ones, will cover an awful lot of most peoples needs in terms of volume and bass extension whereas a couple of modest 10's won't and 15's aren't strictly needed by most people. That's why we are currently coalescing around a couple of 12's. A single decent one will often be enough for rehearsals and small gigs, two for something more demanding and 12's aren't too difficult to transport.

The sound of even bass speakers is largely down to the way they handle mid-range which is less dependant upon cone size (other than dispersion). Ultimately the best way to choose is by listening to the cabs and by keeping an open mind.

[largo]

I just love basschat...

Have to agree with Phil Starr on this and believe that it's really about weight, size & power handling in cabs these days. Oh & for me, how a cab looks & how it handles the rigours of gigging. Amps with versatile EQ, active basses again with versatile EQ and hundreds of stomp boxes to change your tone really mean that the tone a cab delivers doesn't really matter to 99% of us any more. We've got a million other ways to dial in the tone we're after.

However after saying all that, I'm still a dinosaur and think 10's, 12's & 15's each have a sound and after going through a few cabs in my days I'm back with a 4x10.

[Conan]

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1458810941' post='3011032'] after going through a few cabs in my days I'm back with a 4x10.
[/quote]

Your sig indicates two 2x10s... Not quite the same as one 4x10? Certainly more portable and more flexible - but can two cabs ever sound the same as one larger one with the same speakers in it?

Just wondering -but my guess is that they'd be slightly (maybe not even noticeably) different.

[Truckstop]

Utter horseshit (aimed at no-one in particular).

Cab design lends more to the end sound than the speaker does. I once stuck an Eminence Delta (I think?) in an Ampeg 115HE cab and it sounded nasal and punchy; moved the same speaker into an old Carvin 1x15 cab (that looked like it was nearly double the size and twice the weight) and it sounded very different indeed. Better low frequency and more mid punch. Unfortunately it weighed about 90lbs otherwise I would have kept it.

I think that the reason for the new popularity of 12" speakers is because there's more of them about. 15 years ago all you could get was 10's or 15's.

[Conan]

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1458811625' post='3011039']I think that the reason for the new popularity of 12" speakers is because there's more of them about. 15 years ago all you could get was 10's or 15's.
[/quote]

There may well be something in that. Perhaps the "Three Bears" analogy? Tens are toppy, thin, but "fast"; fifteens are flabby, boomy and "slow".

Therefore twelves are "just right".


I don't believe a word of it!

Edited March 24, 2016 by Conan

[largo]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1458811492' post='3011036']
Your sig indicates two 2x10s... Not quite the same as one 4x10?
[/quote]

It depends, in maths 2 x 2 x 10 = 4 x 10 but I agree in Basschat world it's not quite the same.

[AndrewJordan]

All interesting reading! I think Phil Starr and others have probably summed it up regarding the reasons for their popularity. And it would seem that most manufacturers are trying to create cabs with an even response rather than a particular voicing. And if there is a typical sound it comes somewhere between a typical 10 and a typical 15 LOL!

[AndrewJordan]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1458769339' post='3010802']
Only if they're placed vertically, and very few are. A 1x15 will have wider dispersion than a horizontal 2x10.
[/quote]

Correct me if I am wrong Bill, but wouldn't the dispersion advantages of a vertical column be lost if the highest driver is significantly below ear height?

e.g. a 2x12 vertical cab standing say three feet tall with a six foot player stood a couple of feet in front. Would the sound suffer from the same cancellations by the time it reached the players ear as would a horizontal 2x12 at ear height with the player stood to the side? If so, would a low horizontal 2x12 give a better vertical dispersion?

My thinking on this could be way off so I look forward to your answer.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

A horizontal cab would have better vertical dispersion, but aside from a player standing quite close to it there's nothing to be gained, while all that's required to hear it well is to lift it and/or tilt it back. Besides, who are you playing to, yourself or the audience?

[AndrewJordan]

Thanks for confirming that! Just wanted to get a better understanding for my own reasons. Cheers! And of course I am playing to the audience but I would also like to be able to hear what they are hearing.

[mrtcat]

I think the only way to know if a bfm 2x12 cab is right for you is to hear one paired with your amp. Unfortunately they're a little thin on the ground but having built multiple bfm 1x12s and having gigged a pair for a while I found them very good all round. They're pretty flat and have good response across the frequency range. I used 3012ho drivers but they can be built with 3012lf if you want bigger low end. The build is straightforward and the plans are easy to follow if you take your time. The end result is lightweight, sturdy and attractive to look at. I say do it.