Small band PA system

[lojo]

Anyone advise ?

Portable plug n play system for halls / function rooms gigs

Good controllable fold back , and ability to trickle all instruments in to assist balanced sound out front and back at band

I'm totally loving our little functions band , the only thing I don't look forward to is setting up our dated pa made of loads of bits with different wedges all needing own power etc .

[JoeEvans]

The Bose L1 stuff is said to be very good.

[grandad]

How many inputs do you need, in other words, what are you going to put through the FOH.

Also, what foldback do you need?

And of course, what's your budget?

Edited March 24, 2016 by grandad

[mike257]

Aye - typical room sizes, band line-up, backline used, number of individual monitor mixes needed, level of sound engineering expertise available are all useful things to know. What does your current system consist of and can you make use of some of it and just upgrade the bits that aren't up to spec?

[PaulWarning]

My band use a yamaha EMX 512C with 2 wharfdale 15" titans and 2 unbranded foldback monitors, vocals (3 mics), bass drum and guitar through it, easy to set up does the job

[gapiro]

[quote name='grandad' timestamp='1458805269' post='3010956']
How many inputs do you need, in other words, what are you going to put through the FOH.

Also, what foldback do you need?

And of course, what's your budget?
[/quote]
QFT

[Japhet]

In my experience, micing up a drumkit takes a fair few inputs (minimum 4). Add in backing vocals and you're looking at 8+ channels which isn't really a small PA.

[gapiro]

[quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1458820601' post='3011183']
In my experience, micing up a drumkit takes a fair few inputs (minimum 4). Add in backing vocals and you're looking at 8+ channels which isn't really a small PA.
[/quote]
Maybe, but something like these are fantastic and small.... and tons of inputs
http://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_x_air_xr18.htm

[sunburstjazz1967]

I wouldn't use anything other than digital with an iPad to control it anymore.

[Pestie]

I can second that. Jackie 1608 for me!

[Pestie]

Sorry. Jackie 1608

[Pestie]

Sorry, I did the last two replies and it kept getting it wrong. Mackie 1608. I think they are great !

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Pestie' timestamp='1458836747' post='3011413']
Sorry, I did the last two replies and it kept getting it wrong. Mackie 1608. I think they are great !
[/quote]

They are! Although I have to say, the fx (or "outboard") section of the Behringers are currently blowing it away in that department. These small format digital mixers though, incredible value for money. You'd be mad to use anything else...

Worth it for the 31 band eqs alone!

[Kevsy71]

I'm happy with our Behringer PMP 4000 setup, great value. Worth looking at deals on Thomann etc.

[lowhand_mike]

we've just gone to the behringer X32 rack ands its awesome, not really delved into it much yet having only done 1 gig with it but set up on ipad was quick and easy (probably cos i wasnt doing it) volcals were super clean

[lojo]

Cheers

Drums,bass,guitar,keys,vox x 2

Would be handy to have a few spare for extra vox / brass etc

Budget flexible but interested what minimum to meet requirements is

I realise small might not be the right word , but looking for smallish cabinets / wedges and hopefully minimal power leads

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1458890047' post='3011825']
Cheers

Drums,bass,guitar,keys,vox x 2

Would be handy to have a few spare for extra vox / brass etc

Budget flexible but interested what minimum to meet requirements is

I realise small might not be the right word , but looking for smallish cabinets / wedges and hopefully minimal power leads
[/quote]

Great, though a budget would be great still. A function band would normally go out with a few thousand ponds worth of kit but a pub band a few hundreds worth so there is quite a range.

The biggest decision is whether the sound the audience hears will be from the back line or from the PA. Most pub bands and a few smaller function bands will opt for the former. This leaves just vocals and any acoustic instruments going through the PA with Drums acoustically and bass/guitars through their own stacks. A few bands will put a little bit of kick drum through the PA as well. This is really simple and cheaper (good sound isn't cheap)and can be set up and run without a sound engineer.

The other classic set up is with everything going through the PA. This lets you reduce the sound levels on stage with all sorts of advantages but you'll need a bigger PA as effectively it will have to give all the sound output of bass and guitars as well as what it is already doing. Then the on stage monitors will need to be much better as this is most of what you will hear when you are playing. Getting the mix becomes complex enough that a sound engineer becomes part of the equation if you want to exploit your new system fully. That's when you go for a digital mixer.

Smallish implies you will go for something without bass bins? That means probably keeping bass and drums out of the PA where possible.

The simplest system would be to have active speakers and active monitors, with a passive deck, that means a mains lead to each speaker and monitor. If you genuinely want to reduce mains leads then an active desk with passive speakers will reduce the mains leads by two. Using passives and amps will increase the spaghetti but that will all be concentrated in one corner.

One trick is to use the same speakers for mains as for monitors. A couple of 12" mains and a couple of the same speakers for monitors means in an emergency you can swap speakers around and use a monitor as an emergency PA without any loss of the audience's experience. You could even carry a single spare which would act as either monitor or main. A couple of RCF's or K12's etc will handle most PA requirements and make great monitors, but at a price. You are going to need at least 16 channels for mixing but make sure those are mic channels. Stereo channels aren't always useful unless you run a separate drum mixer. I use a Yamaha mixer but Mackie, Soundcraft, Allen and Heath all make good kit. I'd probably look at digital mixers now though, but you'll need some technical expertise to get the most out of them.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1458897806' post='3011885']
Great, though a budget would be great still. A function band would normally go out with a few thousand ponds worth of kit but a pub band a few hundreds worth so there is quite a range.

The biggest decision is whether the sound the audience hears will be from the back line or from the PA. Most pub bands and a few smaller function bands will opt for the former. This leaves just vocals and any acoustic instruments going through the PA with Drums acoustically and bass/guitars through their own stacks. A few bands will put a little bit of kick drum through the PA as well. This is really simple and cheaper (good sound isn't cheap)and can be set up and run without a sound engineer.

The other classic set up is with everything going through the PA. This lets you reduce the sound levels on stage with all sorts of advantages but you'll need a bigger PA as effectively it will have to give all the sound output of bass and guitars as well as what it is already doing. Then the on stage monitors will need to be much better as this is most of what you will hear when you are playing. Getting the mix becomes complex enough that a sound engineer becomes part of the equation if you want to exploit your new system fully. That's when you go for a digital mixer.

Smallish implies you will go for something without bass bins? That means probably keeping bass and drums out of the PA where possible.

The simplest system would be to have active speakers and active monitors, with a passive deck, that means a mains lead to each speaker and monitor. If you genuinely want to reduce mains leads then an active desk with passive speakers will reduce the mains leads by two. Using passives and amps will increase the spaghetti but that will all be concentrated in one corner.

One trick is to use the same speakers for mains as for monitors. A couple of 12" mains and a couple of the same speakers for monitors means in an emergency you can swap speakers around and use a monitor as an emergency PA without any loss of the audience's experience. You could even carry a single spare which would act as either monitor or main. A couple of RCF's or K12's etc will handle most PA requirements and make great monitors, but at a price. You are going to need at least 16 channels for mixing but make sure those are mic channels. Stereo channels aren't always useful unless you run a separate drum mixer. I use a Yamaha mixer but Mackie, Soundcraft, Allen and Heath all make good kit. I'd probably look at digital mixers now though, but you'll need some technical expertise to get the most out of them.
[/quote]very sensible advice there I'd say

[grandad]

PM

[lojo]

Thanks for taking the time to reply

We would be in the functions category so I expect 2 k upwards

Putting a trickle of everyone in seems sensible, we currently mic the kick to give it a bit of presence

[sunburstjazz1967]

We have a behringer xair18 mixer (18 channels) and a pair of RCF 735s for front of house, OK they are expensive tops but they remove the need for subs unless you are a Motorhead tribute act, a pair of DB opera 10s as monitors which on their own would be good tops paired with our old passive subs and a poweramp, as the desk is digital it can handle 4 individual monitor mixes or in ear monitors (5 with the headphone out used for the drummer on wired in ears), as the desk is digital we can if required for any bigger gigs use it to EQ a killer kick drum with gate and compression like a pro gig then send that to our old Peavey PA and two old bass bins so we get the extra thump of the subs but the tight modern mix!

So the whole PA consists of;
Two RCF 735s
Two DB Opera 10s
One mixer smaller than a breeze block
4 10 metre xlr cables
2 10 metre 4 gang extension cables

Oh and a tablet to control it, that's it, done, more power and clarity than a pile of old passive stuff and the desk alone in old money would cost ££££££s to get all the features it has, in built FX and digital plugins etc, 31 band EQ per output, multiple monitor mixes etc etc.

If you play the same venues again just re load the mix you saved from the last time and bingo perfect mix! I have never heard vocals as clear at ANY pub gig as from the 735s as they have 3" voice coils allowing the 15" speaker to deal mainly with the guitar, bass and drums. They look like regular old Mackie tops but I am fairly sure I am going to ditch my amp totally as they are that good, if you went for 745s (£1000 each) there would not be many pub and small function bands with a better PA really, and all in two easy lifts!

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='sunburstjazz1967' timestamp='1458985766' post='3012565']
We have a behringer xair18 mixer (18 channels) and a pair of RCF 735s for front of house, OK they are expensive tops but they remove the need for subs unless you are a Motorhead tribute act, a pair of DB opera 10s as monitors which on their own would be good tops paired with our old passive subs and a poweramp, as the desk is digital it can handle 4 individual monitor mixes or in ear monitors (5 with the headphone out used for the drummer on wired in ears), as the desk is digital we can if required for any bigger gigs use it to EQ a killer kick drum with gate and compression like a pro gig then send that to our old Peavey PA and two old bass bins so we get the extra thump of the subs but the tight modern mix!

So the whole PA consists of;
Two RCF 735s
Two DB Opera 10s
One mixer smaller than a breeze block
4 10 metre xlr cables
2 10 metre 4 gang extension cables

Oh and a tablet to control it, that's it, done, more power and clarity than a pile of old passive stuff and the desk alone in old money would cost ££££££s to get all the features it has, in built FX and digital plugins etc, 31 band EQ per output, multiple monitor mixes etc etc.

If you play the same venues again just re load the mix you saved from the last time and bingo perfect mix! I have never heard vocals as clear at ANY pub gig as from the 735s as they have 3" voice coils allowing the 15" speaker to deal mainly with the guitar, bass and drums. They look like regular old Mackie tops but I am fairly sure I am going to ditch my amp totally as they are that good, if you went for 745s (£1000 each) there would not be many pub and small function bands with a better PA really, and all in two easy lifts!
[/quote]
That looks like the sort of set up the OP should be looking at. Those RCF's are quality and short of a fully pro touring rig are pretty much state of the art at present (no pun intended).

Left out of my original post, but hinted at in this post is the question of monitors. Your options are floor monitors, personal monitors like the MackieSRM150/BehringerBD205D or TC FX150 or in ears. One of the things that will influence your choice of digital mixers over trad is that they offer a lot of monitor channels which you only get in fairly big analogue mixers.

[mr zed]

I'm really enjoying this thread - really useful info and different options for the OP to consider. You should all be proud of yourselves!

[sunburstjazz1967]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1458987822' post='3012593']

That looks like the sort of set up the OP should be looking at. Those RCF's are quality and short of a fully pro touring rig are pretty much state of the art at present (no pun intended).

Left out of my original post, but hinted at in this post is the question of monitors. Your options are floor monitors, personal monitors like the MackieSRM150/BehringerBD205D or TC FX150 or in ears. One of the things that will influence your choice of digital mixers over trad is that they offer a lot of monitor channels which you only get in fairly big analogue mixers.
[/quote]

I had some good advice before purchasing it all and its brilliant and not that expensive really four what it is, like you say the next step up would be a full on pro setup at a massive cost!

I have colour coded xlr leads for all the inputs and outputs with a laminated guide of what goes where, simple, relatively compact and sounds brilliant.

[grandad]

For small to medium sized venues I ended up with the Yamaha EMX5016cf powered mixer driving a pair of EV SX300's for FOH.

My foldback is a Yamaha Stagepas 600i.

This is actually 2 PA systems which gives me a bit of leeway in the event of a failure though I have never had a failure with any Yamaha gear.

It takes a little time over a few venues to get to know your mixer and I think once you're confident and feel you know your way around it, set up and sound check become less arduous.

I think it's true to say that there is a fair amount of brand loyaly to PA systems through familiarly, confidence and successful gigs.

Incidently, when using an electronic drum kit I found that the Roland KC150 amp with it's monitor channel allowed direct amplification of the kit, DI out and a foldback channel, each with independent gain and overall volume control. The 4th monitor channel, used for the foldback, does not go to the DI out.

I would also say remember to budget for cables, stands, covers, flightcases etc.

Edited March 26, 2016 by grandad