Alternative Driver To Kapperlite 3012LF?

[Fonkbass]

Guys,

I'm thinking of starting a 2x12 cab build, possibly a Fearful 1212+6. Are there cheaper alternative drivers to the Kapperlite 3012LF?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

The plans should give you a list of a few appropriate drivers, and a range of T/S specs so that you can compare other drivers as well. 'Should', although I have no idea whether they do.

[Fonkbass]

Thanks Bill, I've been checking out your simplex 2x12 plans too..with my woodworking skills I need something simple to build!

[Passinwind]

[quote name='Fonkbass' timestamp='1459405721' post='3016140']
Guys,

I'm thinking of starting a 2x12 cab build, possibly a Fearful 1212+6. Are there cheaper alternative drivers to the Kappalite 3012LF?
[/quote]

Nope, not if you want to do a to-spec fEARful build.

[Fonkbass]

[quote name='Passinwind' timestamp='1459444759' post='3016699']
Nope, not if you want to do a to-spec fEARful build.
[/quote]

Thanks Passwind, i'm beginning to realize this fact....i also had a look at Bill F's Simplexx 212, at least a choice of drivers is offered.
I like the look of the Fane 12 500LF....I wonder if they will work with the Simplexx I've had Fane in the past and like the sound of them.

[Passinwind]

[quote name='Fonkbass' timestamp='1459446806' post='3016729']
Thanks Passwind, i'm beginning to realize this fact....i also had a look at Bill F's Simplexx 212, at least a choice of drivers is offered.
[/quote]

Yep, Dave Green pretty much stopped looking at alternative drivers and configs once he got what he wanted for his own playing situations. He passed along the plans for free and beyond that he has always encouraged people to do their own homework if they crave more or less than what his designs can offer a DIY builder. BFM charges a very reasonable amount to do your homework for you, IMHO. Just depends what you are looking to get out of DIY building. To me the design aspects were where all the juice was, but I eventually copped to the fact that I don't really enjoy woodworking and would much rather throw my energy at other DIY projects.

[Fonkbass]

[quote name='Passinwind' timestamp='1459448296' post='3016761']
Yep, Dave Green pretty much stopped looking at alternative drivers and configs once he got what he wanted for his own playing situations. He passed along the plans for free and beyond that he has always encouraged people to do their own homework if they crave more or less than what his designs can offer a DIY builder. BFM charges a very reasonable amount to do your homework for you, IMHO. Just depends what you are looking to get out of DIY building. To me the design aspects were where all the juice was, but I eventually copped to the fact that I don't really enjoy woodworking and would much rather throw my energy at other DIY projects.
[/quote]

Tell me about it! I've got a list of DIY home jobs building up too! but i've also got the DIY cab build bug!
The last project i did was a Harley Benton 2x10 upgrade with the help of Arjank from Talkbass, he recommended the Oberton 10B200 drivers, its a very nice 2x10 for small gigs....but now i'm after more power and more low's. I'm using a Hartke LH1000.

[Passinwind]

[quote name='Fonkbass' timestamp='1459449506' post='3016784']
Tell me about it! I've got a list of DIY home jobs building up too! but i've also got the DIY cab build bug!
The last project i did was a Harley Benton 2x10 upgrade with the help of Arjank from Talkbass, he recommended the Oberton 10B200 drivers, its a very nice 2x10 for small gigs....but now i'm after more power and more low's. I'm using a Hartke LH1000.
[/quote]

Cool, Arjan and I correspond on a fairly regular basis. Best of luck in working out your new build.

BTW, my latest DIY project is posted in the Amps and Cabs forum here, currently somewhere near the top. That sort of thing is much more my style these days.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Passinwind

[Fonkbass]

[quote name='Passinwind' timestamp='1459450002' post='3016793']
Cool, Arjan and I correspond on a fairly regular basis. Best of luck in working out your new build.

BTW, my latest DIY project is posted in the Amps and Cabs forum here, currently somewhere near the top. That sort of thing is much more my style these days.
[/quote]

Cool, i'll check it out!

[stevie]

The Kappalite is quite well priced compared with the competition. So if you want something cheaper you will have to forget about having a neo magnet. The Beyma SM212 (which may or may not be the subject of a group buy on here) would probably be a good choice as a low cost alternative to the Kappalite 12F. The weight penalty is not huge - 2kg or so - and it has a comparable low end performance. It has slightly lower power handling, however.
On the plus side, it has an extended high frequency response, unlike the Eminence, which means it would work well as a 2 x12" without the midrange driver. So you could build in stages and add the midrange driver later when time or funds allow.

Edit: actually the weight penalty is only about 1kg per driver, not a huge difference.

Edited April 1, 2016 by stevie

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Fonkbass' timestamp='1459446806' post='3016729']
Thanks Passwind, i'm beginning to realize this fact....i also had a look at Bill F's Simplexx 212, at least a choice of drivers is offered.
I like the look of the Fane 12 500LF....I wonder if they will work with the Simplexx I've had Fane in the past and like the sound of them.
[/quote]

The Fane Sovereign range aren't great for bass guitar on their own, they are designed to be the bottom end of a PA speaker really. The response is usually flat and rolls off fairly low down. If you were going to use them in a multiway design then they might sound fine. Generally anything labelled LF won't be too good for bass on their own as they are designed for LF only.

[Fonkbass]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1459504431' post='3017138']
The Kappalite is quite well priced compared with the competition. So if you want something cheaper you will have to forget about having a neo magnet. The Beyma SM212 (which may or may not be the subject of a group buy on here) would probably be a good choice as a low cost alternative to the Kappalite 12F. The weight penalty is not huge - 2kg or so - and it has a comparable low end performance. It has slightly lower power handling, however.
On the plus side, it has an extended high frequency response, unlike the Eminence, which means it would work well as a 2 x12" without the midrange driver. So you could build in stages and add the midrange driver later when time or funds allow.

Edit: actually the weight penalty is only about 1kg per driver, not a huge difference.
[/quote]

I'm not too concerned about having a lighter weight neo drivers...and the Eminence neo's are too expensive. My main concerns are not to prominent upper mids, but the extended highs of the Beyma's sounds interesting.
I've decided to go for the Simplexx 212 design, so if i have a driver with enough highs..say around 4k, i would leave the tweeters out...

[Fonkbass]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1459528402' post='3017479']
The Fane Sovereign range aren't great for bass guitar on their own, they are designed to be the bottom end of a PA speaker really. The response is usually flat and rolls off fairly low down. If you were going to use them in a multiway design then they might sound fine. Generally anything labelled LF won't be too good for bass on their own as they are designed for LF only.
[/quote]

Ok, i see your point on the Fane's, do you think the Beyma's would suit the Simplexx 212 design?

[stevie]

Probably. Simplexx is just a reflex box, but I don't think Bill publishes any basic specs - so it's impossible to say for sure. I'm sure they'll tell you on the website. Or you could let us have the internal dimensions and porting info from the plans. Or Bill will be along to advise.

[Fonkbass]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1459590892' post='3017864']
Probably. Simplexx is just a reflex box, but I don't think Bill publishes any basic specs - so it's impossible to say for sure. I'm sure they'll tell you on the website. Or you could let us have the internal dimensions and porting info from the plans. Or Bill will be along to advise.
[/quote]

Thanks for your input Stevie. I've read through Bill's documentation, and he does specify T/S spec info for woofers that will work, and the SM 212 Beyma's fit in nicely!

Unfortunately due to copyright protection i cannot reproduce or distribute the info

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Fonkbass' timestamp='1459550859' post='3017702']
Ok, i see your point on the Fane's, do you think the Beyma's would suit the Simplexx 212 design?
[/quote]

Stevie's right, or you could copy the design for the 1x12 we've been working on. If you wanted a 2x12 it wouldn't take a minute for one of us to re calculate the porting for a 2x12 twice the volume of the 1x12.

[Fonkbass]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1459681115' post='3018547']
Stevie's right, or you could copy the design for the 1x12 we've been working on. If you wanted a 2x12 it wouldn't take a minute for one of us to re calculate the porting for a 2x12 twice the volume of the 1x12.
[/quote]

Thanks Phil, but i've purchased the Simplexx 212 plans from Bill and i'm going to start gathering the parts for the build.
The tweeters he recommends, the Eminence BGH25-8's look good although i would go for a no tweeter build if the Beyma's give me enough high end..

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Fonkbass' timestamp='1459705603' post='3018786']
i would go for a no tweeter build if the Beyma's give me enough high end..
[/quote]It's not about high end, it's about dispersion. No matter what the on-axis sensitivity no twelve is going to work well off-axis above 2kHz. The BGH25 is rare in that it can be used to 2kHz, so there's no hole in the mids.

[Fonkbass]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1459712808' post='3018905']
It's not about high end, it's about dispersion. No matter what the on-axis sensitivity no twelve is going to work well off-axis above 2kHz. The BGH25 is rare in that it can be used to 2kHz, so there's no hole in the mids.
[/quote]

Ok, thanks Bill, looks like i'll be building with tweeters. I'll want some 4K in the sound, but i'll have to add an L-Pad to have level adjustment control over the tweeters.

[Marty Forrer]

Don't cheap out on the drivers. Dave Greenboy chose the Kappalites for a reason, and he designed the cab specifically to suit those drivers. Any other driver will not give the same results. Also, use only the crossover from Speaker Hardware that is specified. These crossovers have been designed to handle a lot of power and give a very smooth transition. I built a fEARful 12/6 exactly to spec, and it's the most amazing sounding cab I have ever played through, and I've been through a LOT of cabs. If you cheap out, you will regret it.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='Marty Forrer' timestamp='1459720378' post='3019021']
Don't cheap out on the drivers. Dave Greenboy chose the Kappalites for a reason, and he designed the cab specifically to suit those drivers. Any other driver will not give the same results. Also, use only the crossover from Speaker Hardware that is specified. These crossovers have been designed to handle a lot of power and give a very smooth transition. I built a fEARful 12/6 exactly to spec, and it's the most amazing sounding cab I have ever played through, and I've been through a LOT of cabs. If you cheap out, you will regret it.
[/quote]There is not a lot of difference in the real world performance of the Beyma SM212 and the Emmy Kappalites. The main difference will be the characteristic Emminence peak in the 2K region. If you want it flat the Beyma is probably a better choice, especially as he is building one of BFM's Simplex cabinets, not a Greenboy design.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Chienmortbb

[stevie]

I have a lot of sympathy for Marty's view, but as Fonkbass is building a 2 x 12, I doubt that Dave Green would object - especially as he allows for the option of a cheaper midrange driver. There will be some shortfall in performance, but the savings are huge. It would be a closer call with a 1 x 12".

If the OP decides not to go down the Fearful route, (i.e. not fit a midrange driver), the Beyma would actually be the better choice, as the Kappalite 12LF is not really a bass/midrange driver.

[Passinwind]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1459780574' post='3019523']
I have a lot of sympathy for Marty's view, but as Fonkbass is building a 2 x 12, I doubt that Dave Green would object - especially as he allows for the option of a cheaper midrange driver.
[/quote]

Dave doesn't care a bit what people put in non-fEARful cabs. The cheaper Eminence mid driver option is only for the single 12 fEARfuls. A workable sub is the B&C 6MD38 though, which despite published specs actually tests as virtually identical in sensitivity to the 18 Sound mid drivers, and which I slightly prefer the sound of. It's a bit heavier since it's not a neo driver.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Passinwind

[Fonkbass]

[quote name='Marty Forrer' timestamp='1459720378' post='3019021']
Don't cheap out on the drivers. Dave Greenboy chose the Kappalites for a reason, and he designed the cab specifically to suit those drivers. Any other driver will not give the same results. Also, use only the crossover from Speaker Hardware that is specified. These crossovers have been designed to handle a lot of power and give a very smooth transition. I built a fEARful 12/6 exactly to spec, and it's the most amazing sounding cab I have ever played through, and I've been through a LOT of cabs. If you cheap out, you will regret it.
[/quote]

Cheers Marty, but i'm going for the Bill Fitzmaurice Simplexx 212 build...i like the fact that you can have a choice of drivers, not necessarily cheap!!
The Faital Pro 12PR300 also fits the bill..(pardon the pun). The Kapperlite's are twice the price of many drivers in the 12" range, but are they twice as good?

[Fonkbass]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1459771919' post='3019377']
There is not a lot of difference in the real world performance of the Beyma SM212 and the Emmy Kappalites. The main difference will be the characteristic Emminence peak in the 2K region. If you want it flat the Beyma is probably a better choice, especially as he is building one of BFM's Simplex cabinets, not a Greenboy design.
[/quote]

I've tried a few Neo loaded cabs, namely, Vandekley 2x10, Tec Amp, Mark Bass, GK and Hartke, of which i like the Hartke 1x12. out of all those i prefer the Vanderkley's and the Hartke 1x12...i'm not a big fan of 2K mid peaks!
I lean towards a flatter sound..