Has anyone compared a BF BB2 with a Vanderkley 115MN6?

[dave_bass5]

Ive had my BB2 for a few months, and its been the best sounding cab ive ever owned. Recently ive started to notice the tone when up close is way more punchy and articulate than, say 10ft and over from the cab. This is in rehearsal rooms as well as gigs. I was very used to my old 1212L, and although tone wise that wasn't up to the BB2 it had more out front punch.

Volume isnt an issue, in fact for the first time in my playing life things are falling off the top of my rig, but i feel im still missing something overall. Its not a complaint of the cab, i love it, but i think i have to keep moving on and trying other cabs.

The 15MN6 has been recommended to me now by two people, so thats probably next on the list. Adding a second cab is not going to happen, as ill have to sell the BB2 to fund another cab anyway.

I dont want this thread turning in in to a BF pro/against thread, i have no real complaints with this cab, its just probably not quite the thing i was looking for when i started a thread last year.
i really want to know more about the 15MN6 and how it compares to the BB2 at gig volumes, without PA support if possible.

Cheers.

Edited May 19, 2016 by dave_bass5

[alexclaber]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1459954347' post='3021226']Ive had my BB2 for a few months, and its been the best sounding cab ive ever owned. Recently ive started to notice the tone when up close is way more punchy and articulate than, say 10ft and over from the cab. This is in rehearsal rooms as well as gigs. I was very used to my old 1212L, and although tone wise that wasn't up to the BB2 it had more out front punch.[/quote]

Sound always starts at the cab and the only thing that changes the up close vs out front sound (ignoring room acoustics) is the dispersion - if the dispersion is good then a cab will sound more articulate and punchy up close than one which has less good dispersion. If the cab with better dispersion doesn't sound as good at a distance then there are two possible reasons:

1. The tone you're getting from it isn't right.
2. It's not actually turned up loud enough, you just think it is because it sounds loud when you're close to it due to the better dispersion.

If it sounds good up close then you are getting the right tone from it, therefore you need to turn up!

Edited April 8, 2016 by alexclaber

[dave_bass5]

Thanks Alex.

I understand point 2 but not point 1. Do you mean the EQ is set wrong? I tend to use an almost flat EQ, with The lows backed off slightly, as I find the BB2 has a lovely low end but can overpower the mids.
As far as turning up, I'm now at volume levels where my wireless receiver is falling off the rig. In 13 years off gigging this hasn't happened until recently where I have been turning up.
You could be right though, maybe I just need to go louder and stand further way.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1460113727' post='3022684']
Thanks Alex.

I understand point 2 but not point 1. Do you mean the EQ is set wrong? I tend to use an almost flat EQ, with The lows backed off slightly, as I find the BB2 has a lovely low end but can overpower the mids.
As far as turning up, I'm now at volume levels where my wireless receiver is falling off the rig. In 13 years off gigging this hasn't happened until recently where I have been turning up.
You could be right though, maybe I just need to go louder and stand further way.
[/quote]

EQ is a personal thing - it depends on the player, the bass, the amp, the cab, the venue, etc etc. Where the knobs are pointing is irrelevant (same with the gain/volume knobs).

If your tone is right in the context of the mix then it'll be right out front. If you judge your tone in the context of being much closer to your cab than to everyone else's amps, you'll be hearing yourself much louder in the mix than you'll be out front, which means you're more likely to tend towards a tone that sounds great soloed but may not be appropriate for sitting correctly in a properly balanced mix.

One of the best things any bassist can do for their sound and the band's sound is to stand further from their cab, so they can judge their tone in the mix more accurately.

[Merton]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1460113727' post='3022684']
You could be right though, maybe I just need to go louder
[/quote]

A plan with no drawbacks hahaha

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1460115144' post='3022704']


EQ is a personal thing - it depends on the player, the bass, the amp, the cab, the venue, etc etc. Where the knobs are pointing is irrelevant (same with the gain/volume knobs).

If your tone is right in the context of the mix then it'll be right out front. If you judge your tone in the context of being much closer to your cab than to everyone else's amps, you'll be hearing yourself much louder in the mix than you'll be out front, which means you're more likely to tend towards a tone that sounds great soloed but may not be appropriate for sitting correctly in a properly balanced mix.

One of the best things any bassist can do for their sound and the band's sound is to stand further from their cab, so they can judge their tone in the mix more accurately.
[/quote]

Thanks, yes I see what you are getting at.
My problem is I'm too loud where I'm standing and sometimes can't stand any further away.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

If you are used to hearing how a Schroeder delivers after using one long term, have you tried adjusting the EQ with a big bump in the mids to compensate?

It's not clear what amp you are using, but over on talkbass, Francis Deck (who makes the fdeck pre) used a frequency analyser on the preamp of the GK MB200, and discovered that it can deliver a flat response, but this doesn't occur with the EQ set 'flat' on the amp (i.e. all knobs at 12) - IIRC flat response on the GK happens with contour off, bass and treble at 12 and both low and high mids boosted to 1 or two oclock. So using 12 noon settings will be giving you quite a scooped sound with a flat response cab(assuming all the MB heads use the same tonestack).

I don't know how pronounced the mid hump is on the Schroeder cab that your ears are used to, but if I were in your position, I would be much keener to experiment with the mid controls on the amp a bit more before jumping to the conclusion that the cab needs to go.

Edited April 8, 2016 by SubsonicSimpleton

[funkle]

Alex and Subsonic offer reasonable advice. What goes into a BB2 is largely what comes out of it, at least IMO when I tried one. About as pure a cab as ever I have heard. If you stand further out front and fiddle the mid EQ a lot, you may get the punch you need. I don't want to teach you to suck eggs, you probably have already done this, but the EQ you have available may be the limiting factor.

Edit: maybe something around the 200hz - 400hz mark.

Edited April 8, 2016 by funkle

[dave_bass5]

Thanks.
The two amps I've used are a Markbass F1, with and without VTBass/DG VMTD, and my new GKMB800, with and without VTBass and Darkglass VMT.
I stopped using the 1212L around Aug last year, so i don't have that tone in my head anymore, I only brought it up as I had been using it in the same studios as the BB2 without the same effect. I know the 1212L is like a sledgehammer when it comes to mids, and doesn't sound as smooth or as deep as the BB2
I've seen those GK figures, although I thought it was 11 o'clock on the treble and bass for the MB800, and I do find I use the low mid a lot more than the low knob. I don't use the contour as I don't like scooped tones anyway, and I'm certainly not hearing a scooped tone when up close.

Maybe it's the fact that the BB2 is quite neutral, maybe for me a more coloured cab will work better. This is not a reflection on the BB2, just a personal preference. In the 20 odd years Ive been gigging I've not gone through too many cabs, but if something isn't quite working it's just time to move on.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1460118715' post='3022754']
Alex and Subsonic offer reasonable advice. What goes into a BB2 is largely what comes out of it, at least IMO when I tried one. About as pure a cab as ever I have heard. If you stand further out front and fiddle the mid EQ a lot, you may get the punch you need. I don't want to teach you to suck eggs, you probably have already done this, but the EQ you have available may be the limiting factor.
[/quote]

Cheers. I do admit there are many things I haven't tried, and I'm in no rush to change cabs, but I would like to explore other brands as well.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Suppose it depends on what sort of colouration you want - some speakers really add a lot to the sound when they start to get to the cone breakup stage, you can never really get that from any sort of EQ.

If you want particular dips and peaks in the frequency response, that's a whole different ballgame, and how the EQ bands line up with the cab response anomalies can be great, or in some circumstances just unworkable because you can't adjust the offending frequency sufficiently or end up messing somethin else up.

If you haven't already tried it, maybe try going into the FX return and experiment with the different amp/cab sims on your 60B - the frequency responses of the zoom sims is well documented, and if you find something you particularly like it might be useful to point you in the direction of what you are looking for (or might offer you a solution you like with what you have already).

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='SubsonicSimpleton' timestamp='1460120670' post='3022786']
Suppose it depends on what sort of colouration you want - some speakers really add a lot to the sound when they start to get to the cone breakup stage, you can never really get that from any sort of EQ.

If you want particular dips and peaks in the frequency response, that's a whole different ballgame, and how the EQ bands line up with the cab response anomalies can be great, or in some circumstances just unworkable because you can't adjust the offending frequency sufficiently or end up messing somethin else up.

If you haven't already tried it, maybe try going into the FX return and experiment with the different amp/cab sims on your 60B - the frequency responses of the zoom sims is well documented, and if you find something you particularly like it might be useful to point you in the direction of what you are looking for (or might offer you a solution you like with what you have already).
[/quote]

Thanks again. I dont use my 60B live anymore but it's a good suggestion.
I do think I have a great tone already, it's just that it's not really translating out in to the room. I really can't turn up any louder as its getting painful. Maybe it is just an EQ issue, or bloody drummer issue, but I can't boost the mids anymore at this volume.

When I started this thread I was really asking about the 15MN6. It's a cab that interests me and although it might not be any sort of cure, I'd like to get some impressions on it. Even if I didn't have any of these issues I'd like to give one of these a go at some point.

[alexclaber]

I imagine that changing your default plucking position (unless you already shift around the strings a lot) and some of your muting/ghosting choices will sort this out.

Lots of bassists like 'pretty' bass sounds but many great recorded bass sounds are pretty damned ugly - and the pretty recorded tones rarely translate in the noise of a live gig (even with in-ears, expensive PAs, proper monitoring, etc). Off the top of my head I can think of two examples where a bass that worked brilliantly on record couldn't be used for touring for sonic reasons (Raphael Saadiq's old P-bass and Flea's old J-bass, both with flats).

I'm not a big advocate of boostings mids on amps - yes, most of the tone is in the mids but in my view it's a case of playing the instruments so the mids speak and then having a rig that lets enough midrange through. Do what you will but unless you were suffering a terrible case of Emperor's New Clothes, the problem isn't the cab. Unless, to continue the metaphors, you're having a Princess and the Pea moment!

[stevie]

I would agree with your two advisors that a cab with a midrange driver could solve your problem. Personally, I'd never consider a cab without one. I've no experience of the Vanderkley, but I would certainly give it a try. I thought Barefaced made one, but I've just checked and it must be discontinued.

[dave_bass5]

That all makes perfect sense, and it agree, what works well in isolation doesn't always work well in a live mix.
When I got my Darkglass VMT I was horrified at the loss of top end (compared to my VTBass) and the middy tone It produced, but it a band context this actually helped me with getting heard and the tone became more focused.

I play mostly with a pick, but am trying to play more finger style. I do find things sound better with fingers, there seems to be more substance to the notes.

I think your's and the other comments have made me realise I need to put a bit more effort in and try and sort this out without spending more money, or maybe I should get a Big Twin II instead :-)

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1460128093' post='3022890']
I would agree with your two advisors that a cab with a midrange driver could solve your problem. Personally, I'd never consider a cab without one. I've no experience of the Vanderkley, but I would certainly give it a try. I thought Barefaced made one, but I've just checked and it must be discontinued.
[/quote]

Yeah, whatever happens with the BB2 I do intend to try one out. Might have to go on a road trip to Bass Direct.

[stevie]

Please do. Alex was right in his first post. If the sound changes from in front of to 10 feet in front of the cab, it's nothing to do with the amp: it's a dispersion problem.

[LewisK1975]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1460128262' post='3022895']
Yeah, whatever happens with the BB2 I do intend to try one out. Might have to go on a road trip to Bass Direct.
[/quote]

Be careful, I've never made it out of there without a huge dent in my wallet! I know Mark and Marcus both speak very highly of the Vanderkley stuff, and they are both very knowledgeable chaps.

Edited April 8, 2016 by LewisK1975

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1460128516' post='3022907']
Please do. Alex was right in his first post. If the sound changes from in front of to 10 feet in front of the cab, it's nothing to do with the amp: it's a dispersion problem.
[/quote]

Yeah, that made sense expect I know I'm louder than I have even been in the past, even in the rehearsal room, as things are falling off the amp. I'll try moving the amp as far back from me as I can at the next rehearsal and see if that helps. I do normally do try and get it further back but then I stand close to it.

Maybe I also need to shut my drummer up a bit. It's him that dictates the ovall volume we play at, but let's not go there in this thread :-)

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='LewisK1975' timestamp='1460129025' post='3022918']


Be careful, I've never made it out of there without a huge dent in my wallet! I know Mark and Marcus both speak very highly of the Vanderkley stuff, and they are both very knowledgeable chaps.
[/quote]

I'm very much GAS free at the moment, other than intrigued by these cabs, but as we know, GAS can hit at any time.

[JTUK]

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1460128135' post='3022891']
.................. what works well in isolation doesn't always work well in a live mix.
When I got my Darkglass VMT I was horrified at the loss of top end (compared to my VTBass) and the middy tone It produced, but it a band context this actually helped me with getting heard and the tone became more focused.

.............

[/quote]

Don't subscribe to this point of view at all, Dave. I get a tone I want to use and use it..
I spend all my time working on the tone for the style I'm using and once I get it that is the sound I use at a gig.
The sound..to me, is pleasing solo'd and works in the mix and band context.

I'd also say the sound is pretty full range as I like to hear what I do up top as well as have a good...not massive..low end.

Why would I spend so much time on a tone that is techique dependent and then have to change it because
the stage sound doesn't work..Sounds complete nonsense to me.

I am quite bemused people have so many problems hearing themselves and being heard.
If that happens..something is drastically wrong, IMO.

[Muzz]

You've only go tot listen to some of the solo'd big-name bass stuff out there on YT to hear that some bass tones that work very well in a live mix sound very harsh solo'd. Geddy and JE spring to mind instantly, but there are others.

I've routinely fired my rig up at home the following day after a gig where I've had to EQ a bit and winced at the sound I ended up with, but which sounded great in that room with the band.

[Guest bassman7755]

You could try dialing in a bit of upper mid boost in the EQ around say 4-5khz - this would essentially emulate a typical "voiced" bass cab.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Muzz' timestamp='1460149668' post='3023190']
You've only go tot listen to some of the solo'd big-name bass stuff out there on YT to hear that some bass tones that work very well in a live mix sound very harsh solo'd. Geddy and JE spring to mind instantly, but there are others.

I've routinely fired my rig up at home the following day after a gig where I've had to EQ a bit and winced at the sound I ended up with, but which sounded great in that room with the band.
[/quote]

Yep, that's what I was going to say. A mix can certainly cover up the true tone of the bass.

John, I do agree with you, I've got my tone just how I like it, but need the audience to hear it. I'm happy to tweak the amp a bit to help project this tone, but as I've been playing for a long time I won't be in a position where the gear dictates that I change my playing style. It's worked with every rig I've owned, I'd expect it to with my current rig.
I'm going to try a few of the suggestions in this thread at next weeks rehearsal, they may well be the solution. As this is probably the flattest sounding cab I've ever owned it could well be I do need to adjust my amp in a slightly different way. I have no issue with hearing myself, nor being heard, it's just that I want what I hear to be close to what the audience hear. Maybe as Alex said, I just need to turn it up a bit more.

Edited April 8, 2016 by dave_bass5

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1460150775' post='3023197']
You could try dialing in a bit of upper mid boost in the EQ around say 4-5khz - this would essentially emulate a typical "voiced" bass cab.
[/quote]

Cheers. Yes but my issue isnt being able to get a good tone, it's getting the good tone I have out in to the room.