mcgraham Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 +1. I have to admit, it's only after reading various articles on sensitivity that I realise how sucked in we've all been into wattage ratings... and I [i]still[/i] can't help but think "man, 1500W! that's a beast" Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 [quote name='mcgraham' post='291505' date='Sep 25 2008, 09:40 AM']+1. I have to admit, it's only after reading various articles on sensitivity that I realise how sucked in we've all been into wattage ratings... and I [i]still[/i] can't help but think "man, 1500W! that's a beast"[/quote] Yeah, it's really hard to get past that! But even the sensitivity figure on its own doesn't tell you how loud the cab can go where it really matters - in the lows - because few cabs can handle their rated power in the lows. I'm still puzzling over how to present quantitative specs for my designs that won't sell them short whilst remaining honest! At least with all these forums you can build a fair picture of what a given cab can do based on everyone's experiences. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted September 25, 2008 Author Share Posted September 25, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='291698' date='Sep 25 2008, 12:28 PM']Yeah, it's really hard to get past that! But even the sensitivity figure on its own doesn't tell you how loud the cab can go where it really matters - in the lows - because few cabs can handle their rated power in the lows. I'm still puzzling over how to present quantitative specs for my designs that won't sell them short whilst remaining honest! At least with all these forums you can build a fair picture of what a given cab can do based on everyone's experiences. Alex[/quote] It's true. Although it's just as easy to end up with loads of opinions/reviews saying 'this cab rocks' after trying it once, having compared it with nothing else and having never used it in a band context. And we're the ones who buy based on these sorts of reviews! Perhaps showing SPL (or whatever the relevant type is!)charts together with a simple explanation of features and understanding for interpreting what they show. DiMarzio do a simple bar graph for representing strong lows, mids and highs, perhaps that would be a more useful method of representation? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 (edited) [quote name='mcgraham' post='291710' date='Sep 25 2008, 12:44 PM']Perhaps showing SPL (or whatever the relevant type is!)charts together with a simple explanation of features and understanding for interpreting what they show. DiMarzio do a simple bar graph for representing strong lows, mids and highs, perhaps that would be a more useful method of representation?[/quote] Continuing to meander off-topic, how much sense does this chart make? Red = The Big One Orange = The Compact Blue ~ Epifani UL410 Green ~ Schroeder 1212L It's showing maximum output in dB SPL as limited by both excursion limited or program power handling. Alex Edited September 25, 2008 by alexclaber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempo Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 The graph is pretty self explanatory Alex, to anybody thats prepared to look that is Any dates on availability of the "big one"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 [quote name='tempo' post='292346' date='Sep 26 2008, 12:28 AM']Any dates on availability of the "big one"?[/quote] Not quite - I want to see how this initial production model turns out but I have the last remaining parts for the first batch on order. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 1, 2008 Author Share Posted October 1, 2008 Only just seen this. Saw that I'd 'started' a thread and went 'Woaaaah, when did I do that?!' I think that's very clear and definitely useful. Helps give a good comparison. It's also not just a one dimensional figure that tells you it's best sensitivity rating or SPL at an ill-specified frequency, which appears to be the norm (judging from what your good self and BFM have been saying). Good work! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='291733' date='Sep 25 2008, 08:05 AM']Continuing to meander off-topic, how much sense does this chart make? Red = The Big One Orange = The Compact Blue ~ Epifani UL410 Green ~ Schroeder 1212L It's showing maximum output in dB SPL as limited by both excursion limited or program power handling. Alex[/quote] It's informative, if not entirely accurate, as calculated maximum SPL doesn't take into account thermal power compression. But since every manufacturer who publishes maximum SPL ratings doesn't factor in the mechanical compression caused by xmax it's still a far better representation of a real world result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='291733' date='Sep 25 2008, 01:05 PM']It's showing maximum output in dB SPL as limited by both excursion limited or program power handling.[/quote] err...maybe it's just me, but those graphs don't say that much to me on their own. A graph of frequency response and/or sensitivity/vs frequency, would really be a bit more informative. any chance of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 [quote name='escholl' post='299868' date='Oct 5 2008, 08:23 AM']err...maybe it's just me, but those graphs don't say that much to me on their own. A graph of frequency response and/or sensitivity/vs frequency, would really be a bit more informative. any chance of that?[/quote] The maximum SPL chart is far more informative than a FRD. FRD shows what the cab will do with low level input, but what a cab will do with 1 watt doesn't say what it will do with 100 watts or more. Admiittedly having manufacturers provide FRD would be a giant leap in the right direction, but ulitmately the max SPL chart tells us what most of us are really interested in, which is how loud the cab will actually go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='299898' date='Oct 5 2008, 02:33 PM']The maximum SPL chart is far more informative than a FRD. FRD shows what the cab will do with low level input, but what a cab will do with 1 watt doesn't say what it will do with 100 watts or more. Admiittedly having manufacturers provide FRD would be a giant leap in the right direction, but ulitmately the max SPL chart tells us what most of us are really interested in, which is how loud the cab will actually go.[/quote] yes, but i don't see the correlation between how SPL output at certain frequencies is connected to how it will actually sound....i don't know how to put it in words though. Say the cab could put out 128dB at 100 Hz, and 136 dB at 1kHz (as an example)....but due the varying sensitivity with frequency range of whatever particular driver, it may reach that 136 dB with only 500 watts of power, but need 2 kW to reach 128dB at 100 Hz....or something along those lines. to my mind, it seems a bit like telling the top speed of a car, and trying to use only that number to figure out lap times on a track..it would be irrelevant without knowing the acceleration and cornering ability, etc, etc of the car. does that make sense? i know what you mean though about frequency response at 1 watt, it's often very different than it is under higher power. I guess what i'd like to see is a graph of measured swept frequency response from say, 30 Hz to 20 kHz, with 1kHz being measured at 120 dB and the other frequencies in relation to that. Sort of like the one watt test, except this time quantifying a dB level instead of a power level...in addition, the power required to reach 120dB should be listed and held constant, similar to the way speakers are tested at 1 watt. This way it would be easy to see sensitivity and high power frequency response all in one graph. i keep re-reading it but that's the best i can figure out how to explain it...it makes sense in my head haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 (edited) [quote name='escholl' post='299994' date='Oct 5 2008, 12:24 PM']Say the cab could put out 128dB at 100 Hz, and 136 dB at 1kHz (as an example)....but due the varying sensitivity with frequency range of whatever particular driver, it may reach that 136 dB with only 500 watts of power, but need 2 kW to reach 128dB at 100 Hz....or something along those lines.[/quote]A dilemma indeed, and a very real one, until you realize that differential is only 6dB, and that's on average a quarter turn of an EQ knob. EQ makes it possible to get pretty much anything you want out of a cab, so long as the cab has the ability to make use of the power that EQing results in giving it. In any event, you'll sooner see a man on Mars than you will frequency response or maximum SPL charts from the manufacturers. Edited October 5, 2008 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 [quote name='escholl' post='299868' date='Oct 5 2008, 01:23 PM']err...maybe it's just me, but those graphs don't say that much to me on their own. A graph of frequency response and/or sensitivity/vs frequency, would really be a bit more informative. any chance of that?[/quote] These plots are the result of combining a frequency response plot with a max power plot. Where the plot has the typical flat-ish on right curving down to eventually steep descent on the left is where the output of the speaker is being limited by the thermal power handling. There are then two places on each curve (for a ported speaker) where the output can potentially be limited by the mechanical power handling (hitting Xmax), which are the dip in response above the tuning frequency and the steep drop in response below the tuning frequency. So if you want to know the frequency response for any of these speakers just ignore the dip above the tuning frequency but bear in mind that most speakers can't handle full RMS power let alone program power in this region and that's just where you need maximum output for most bass guitar sounds. Does that make sense? Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='300267' date='Oct 6 2008, 08:15 AM']Does that make sense?[/quote] haha no...well, kinda. so basically where the others would have a dip in frequency response around 70-80 Hz, as limited by their power handling at that frequency, the one modeled in red doesn't, and it additionally has a significantly better output down to around 40 Hz...with the end result being a broader, smoother frequency response at high output? or something? i usually design the amplifier side of things, and have never designed a conventional and high output speaker (only flat-panel hi-fi stuff) so you'll have to excuse me if i'm being a bit thick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 [quote name='escholl' post='300756' date='Oct 6 2008, 02:39 PM']so basically where the others would have a dip in frequency response around 70-80 Hz, as limited by their power handling at that frequency, the one modeled in red doesn't, and it additionally has a significantly better output down to around 40 Hz...with the end result being a broader, smoother frequency response at high output? or something?[/quote] Pretty much. The other boxes all have limited output capabilities at the frequency where the dip appears, and in the low end, but that will not show up on a standard small signal SPL chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 cheers for the help guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.