warwickhunt Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 [quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1460041771' post='3022031'] ...makes me have to turn the volume of my 500W amp to almost half... [/quote] Only problem is that 1/2 way on ANY amp has no relation/bearing as to how loud you are or how much of the 500w is in use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobthedog Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1460051883' post='3022174'] Only problem is that 1/2 way on ANY amp has no relation/bearing as to how loud you are or how much of the 500w is in use. [/quote] Of course it does, otherwise my amp would not go up to 11! :-) I do think audiences in general are louder as less people go to a pub to specifically listen to the band. My father's band in the 70‘s often played to pubs in total silence as people stopped talking just to listen. They applauded solos and were there for the band. Nowadays I think more people are in the pub as a coincidence and just talk to each other with the music as background. This is a very general view and with limited proof as I do not get to hear bands in pubs very often since moving out of town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) [quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1460039960' post='3021997'] I'm wondering were bands quieter. Drums have certainly not got quieter. Because reading threads makes you think that with less than so many watts etc there's no way you would be heard over a drummer. So to me it seems something must have changed, either gigs were quieter, drummers didn't play as hard or the amount of power you need now is being over estimated? [/quote] My recollection is that back in the day, most musicians and particularly bass players in pub bands generally sounding like arse because everyone was pushing under powered amps to their limits, or even worse several players sharing one amp and/or sharing an equally under powered PA. Seeing a whole band go though an rubbish HH 150 PA is not an experience I want to repeat in a hurry. Having said that though I think I've yet to see a bass player in a pub band using the sort of premium gear routinely discussed on BC - it seems the majority of players out there are using ropey old peavey or TE kit or if I'm lucky a slightly less ropey ashdown setup. Crap old 1x15 combos still seem to be remarkably popular, I think I've seen someone using commodity 2x10 or 4x10 maybe half a dozen times in 30 years and a decent mid range cab like an SWR or Eden maybe once or twice - as for any of the the BC "usual suspects" well forget it. I can definitely count on the fingers of one hand the number of occasions when I've though "hey thats a nice bass sound". Edited April 7, 2016 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number6 Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Clearly modern amps are wimps.....real amps were created in the 70s and 80s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 [quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1460040723' post='3022014'] I used to gig with a Selmer treble & bass 50 and 2x15 home made cab. It was enough, and the bands I was in then played heavier and more intense music than I do now, and now I use a 500 watt amp! [/quote] Was not a Selmer T&B 50 a valve amp, though? I know technically they're not supposed to be louder, but everyone knows that they are, and by quite a large margin. The loudest amp I've ever used was a Burman 100W valve amp. Which I regret selling, by the way. Having said that my Rumble 500 combo running at 350W is also really bloody loud, in fact in my current band I have trouble getting it quiet enough. But to answer the OP's question - in my opinion pub bands haven't got louder. They are generally way too loud and always have been. If I go to a pub and see two 100W guitar rigs set up I just walk straight back out again and do my hearing a favour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 [quote name='Bobthedog' timestamp='1460052522' post='3022186'] I do think audiences in general are louder as less people go to a pub to specifically listen to the band. My father's band in the 70‘s often played to pubs in total silence as people stopped talking just to listen. They applauded solos and were there for the band. Nowadays I think more people are in the pub as a coincidence and just talk to each other with the music as background. [/quote] It may not be the main reason for altered perceptions of volume but it is a bugbear of mine. I elected to play in a 4 piece harmony 'acoustic' band (not technically acoustic at all as we all plugged into a small PA) with a cajon player rather than drummer due to my dislike of increasing volumes. Our intention was to play venues with a bit more finesse rather than a sledge hammer; often rock songs but done 'unplugged' style. Really hacked me off when we were asked to turn up because the people at the back of the room (seated around the corner) couldn't hear us for the noise of the pub! They could easily have moved further down the pub rather than sat 50m away around the corner of the L shaped room but instead we had to go from a comfortable experience for those at the band end of the pub to the point where we had 700w of active Mackie speakers cranked up so that we could be heard at the back of the room over the general chatter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twincam Posted April 7, 2016 Author Share Posted April 7, 2016 [quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1460053254' post='3022195'] My recollection is that back in the day, most musicians and particularly bass players in pub bands generally sounding like arse because everyone was pushing under powered amps to their limits, or even worse several players sharing one amp and/or sharing an equally under powered PA. Seeing a whole band go though an rubbish HH 150 PA is not an experience I want to repeat in a hurry. Having said that though I think I've yet to see a bass player in a pub band using the sort of premium gear routinely discussed on BC - it seems the majority of players out there are using ropey old peavey or TE kit or if I'm lucky a slightly less ropey ashdown setup. Crap old 1x15 combos still seem to be remarkably popular, I think I've seen someone using commodity 2x10 or 4x10 maybe half a dozen times in 30 years and a decent mid range cab like an SWR or Eden maybe once or twice - as for any of the the BC "usual suspects" well forget it. I can definitely count on the fingers of one hand the number of occasions when I've though "hey thats a nice bass sound". [/quote] I started seeing bands early 2000s so by then the quality will have improved from years past. But I can certainly imagine the general sound quality has only got better of course. But I would say that's mainly because of the prices going down so separate pa, amps etc etc are much cheaper to buy and I'm guessing that began in the 90s if not the 80s but that's me guessing. All the bass players I've seen are a mixture of half decent equipment (not high end) and not through the pa, the last two were a fender rumble mk2 350 head into a mark bass 2x10 sounded fantastic, loud and they were turned down. Although was a v small pub and the drummer had a small kit. Time before that was an Ampeg 4x10 can't recall the heads but seemed an Eden me something else oldish solid state sounded alright in a small to medium venue in a loud band! Pretty sure he said 400w. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) Maybe define what is meant by 'in the past'..? If one follows a certain notion of 'time-line', bands in the fifties had much the same drums as today, but played with brushes, tapping out light dance music behind a horn section. Bill Haley and such opened up the 'rock'n'roll' can of worms, and electric skiffle and rock crept in. Still, typically local pub bands would be playing Motown-type stuff, with the drums kept in their place. Led Zep et al brought in 'concert toms', miced up drums for live outdoors crept in, and all instruments could (and did...) play to their full acoustic potential and more. The PA was invented (WEM,anyone..?) and the loudness war wick was lit. It became a kind of badge of honour to be louder than others (Who, Motorhead etc...) and local bands took on these repertoires and playing styles. To this day, a heavy metal band won't be able to perform much without at least a decent PA to get the sub-sonic shouting across..! Drums have not changed all that much, it's just that the cymbals break less often under the heavy pelting they're often (shamefully...) subjected to. In those circumstances, yes, more sound pressure is 'needed' to 'compete', but is that music..? Hmm... There is no cut'n'dried scale for watts needed, as it depends so much on the attitude of the band members; are they pretending they're at Hyde Park or interested in entertaining a couple of hundred folks on the dance floor..? Is there an acoustic guitar as principal instrument, or a pair of 7-string Les Paul's..? Is the band vocal-based or shouty punk..? No rules, you see. Need valve-driven grind..? Looking for clean with headroom..? Stand-alone or with PA..? 'Back then', it was so easy; one used whatever one came across and could afford. My first bass amp was a 30-watt Linear Conchord, I replaced it with a home-built 100w trannie amp (4 x 2N3055 for the nostalgic...) and equally home-built 4 x 12 cab, measuring 3'x3'x1', covered in turquoise floor vinyl..! We're all spoilt these days, for choice. Tough, isn't it..? Not much sense, I'd say, in harking back, as the game has changed (and continues to change...) so much. If there's any doubt as to what to get, look at equivalent groups in your area and see what they do. Edited April 7, 2016 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbass Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Just looking at this from a punters perspective. Went to see a 'pub' band recently and in a word had to 'leave' cause it was literaly too loud. Jeez what is going on with bands now...and yesmost of that was the grinding lower mid bass tone. Guy had a powerful modern rig which felt like it was cutting me in half...was a far cry from the old Bassman 135 and 1 X 15 I used to use back in the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twincam Posted April 7, 2016 Author Share Posted April 7, 2016 Just a thought what's the point in anything over 500w as if you need more power surely your in a venue you need pa support!? So why get a bigger amp it won't throw the power out even multi stacks in really big venues and above you need pa support no matter how big the rig(s). Unless your playing really big venues and I can see why you would need a stack and high power or multi stacks as well as a pa. Although I'm sure after so much power it's just for show. Anyhow I'm pleased the thread hasn't broken down yet haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 [quote name='ians' timestamp='1460056045' post='3022239'] ...a far cry from the old Bassman 135 and 1 X 15 I used to use back in the day. [/quote] Which I'm guessing was a valve amp that could probably go loud - but you used it sensibly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 We're very close to getting on to the 'heft' thing here........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 [quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1460056142' post='3022241'] ...what's the point in anything over 500w as if you need more power surely your in a venue you need pa support!? [/quote] Exactly. People will say 'headroom' I suppose, but over the last 5 years or so my bass rigs have been getting smaller and lighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 [quote name='taunton-hobbit' timestamp='1460056242' post='3022244'] We're very close to getting on to the 'heft' thing here... [/quote] Well I wasn't going to say 'heft' - dammit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr zed Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Watts are not a measure of volume, they are a measure of power. You need to be looking at the SPL. I swear my 900 watt class d Genz amp is not as loud as the 300 watt Mesa Walkabout I used to own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorR Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 From 1988 to about 2000 and something I just used a 200w TE Series 6 1215 combo for everything, including lots of back line only gigs. No extension cab so must have been delivering about 120-150w to the speaker. That with a variety of drummers of different levels of Neanderthal tendency. Never needed to turn the master vol up over the 12 o'clock position (50%), but more likely to be around 11 o'clock. Last few years I've used a Little Mark 2 with two Traveler cabs - chosen for weight, flexibility and sound not for number of watts. Don't think I ever needed to turn the master volume up over about 9 o'clock, 10 o'clock at the most. That's 500 watts running at probably about 20% capacity... OK, I'm not playing metal or similar (mostly mainstream rock and pop covers - including Mustang Sally, Sweet Home Alabama, Crazy Little Thing Called Love and Hi Ho Silver Lining and loving playing them!) but I really can't imagine how much more headroom I could possibly ever need...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twincam Posted April 7, 2016 Author Share Posted April 7, 2016 [quote name='taunton-hobbit' timestamp='1460056242' post='3022244'] We're very close to getting on to the 'heft' thing here........... [/quote] Haha close but just yet thankfully! Although I suppose it could be said that also cabs are getting smaller, more efficient yes but they won't match up to the multi speakers and larger cabs that's physics so even cabs are part of the heft not just the amp. sh*t just mentioned heft. Pleased with yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Delighted........of course speakers are vitally important, but I can hear the difference between my Crown (class D - very surgically precise) and my Ormats (major valve grunt). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1460056328' post='3022247'] Well I wasn't going to say 'heft' - dammit! [/quote] Gawd, that new avatar is terrifying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesb Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I once played the Camden Palace with an 80 watt TE combo with an 8 inch speaker. Was it loud enough as a monitor? Not quite! But all the other smaller gigs I did with that combo were fine, though admittedly it was cranked. Drummer, two guitar players, one with an AC30 and the other a fender twin. All of us understood that having a reasonable stage volume was vital. I also used to have a selmer treble and bass 50 that I did many small gigs with, Great sound!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewJordan Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I'm surprised that BFM hasn't been in yet to tell you that in the old days bass speakers were more sensitive and so could produce more spl for a lower wattage input blah blah blah................all true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) In the mid 80s we put the vocals through the 100w H/H, into a couple of 2x12" 25W Celestion speakers. The bass amp was 100w Peavey and the guitar some kind of Marshall amp. The vocals would have been pushed to the point of feedback but would easily distort at those kinds of volumes. No one complained we were too quiet or asked us to turn down. In the late 90s we were running vocals through 1500w peavy amp and mixer but maybe running at 1/3 if that. The only person who thought we weren't loud enough was the drummer - a lover of heavy metal - playing in a function band. We actually were given a residency at a club because we were able to play "at the appropriate volume for the venue". I now use a 500w head into 2x400w cabs. It rarely goes above 3, but sounds very clean and lots of people have said how nice the band sound. Bands have gotten louder, mainly due to inexpensive power, if your audience are not down the front with you; then you're too loud. Edited April 7, 2016 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) I think PAs now are better an offer more and better control over a bands sound. I was bar gigging with the 750 watt GK rb1001 with 2 10s on top of a 15". It was great but not really necessary for bar gigs, I now run the GK 1 15" combo, XRL out to the board. Blue Edited April 7, 2016 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1460064135' post='3022358'] In the mid 80s we put the vocals through the 100w H/H, into a couple of 2x12" 25W Celestion speakers. The bass amp was 100w Peavey and the guitar some kind of Marshall amp. The vocals would have been pushed to the point of feedback but would easily distort at those kinds of volumes. No one complained we were too quiet or asked us to turn down. In the late 90s we were running vocals through 1500w peavy amp and mixer but maybe running at 1/3 if that. The only person who thought we weren't loud enough was the drummer - a lover of heavy metal - playing in a function band. We actually were given a residency at a club because we were able to play "at the appropriate volume for the venue". I now use a 500w head into 2x400w cabs. It rarely goes above 3, but sounds very clean and lots of people have said how nice the band sound. Bands have gotten louder, mainly due to inexpensive power, if your audience are not down the front with you; then you're too loud. [/quote] Interesting over here in the States the bar owners don't care if your to loud or too quiet. They're only concerned about whether or not they're selling enough alcohol. Blue Edited April 7, 2016 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1460068742' post='3022407'] Interesting over here in the States the bar owners don't care if your to loud or too quiet. They're only concerned about whether or not they're selling enough alcohol. Blue [/quote] If only that was the case here...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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