Were pub/smaller venue bands quieter in the past?

[peteb]

From what I remember, bands were generally louder years ago – for one thing people seemed less concerned about damaging their hearing!

Drums haven’t changed much since the 70s and guitarists tended to use valve heads and 412s, while we used 100w and then 200w amps with the master volume turned up to 9 (unless of course you could afford an early SVT or Acoustic rig). Then came the 80s and we all started using separate preamps and 500w PA poweramps in racks that that we could barely lift. Not to mention that every band had to carry around piles of multiple huge PA speakers and racks of amps, which have now been replaced by a couple of small boxes that do a far better job.

Edited April 7, 2016 by peteb

[chris_b]

In the 60's and 70's I built up from a 50 watt valve amp through a 118 cab to a 100 watt valve amp through a 412 100 watt cab. I don't know how to compare that with now but we must have been a lot quieter. I guess that one measurement is that I didn't start being affected by tinnitus until the early 90's, over 25 years in.

I think that volume has become excessive and more of an issue in the last 20 years. These days I'd say 60% of the gigs I do are too loud, so those bands are too loud, and therefore I'm too loud as well, but I don't see audiences or promoters complaining about it. The levels can vary but IMO we can often be louder than makes sense. It seems the quieter bands have fallen by the wayside and it's the loud ones that are gigging the most.

At the end of the day I play as loud as the band leader wants me to. My gear will cover everything with ease, from an acoustic duo to Led Zep on 11. I'm flexible enough to do the job I have to do to, so while I have a view, there's no point in complaining, so I don't.

My ear plugs are the most important part of my rig.

Edited April 8, 2016 by chris_b

[Happy Jack]

Apropos of nothing at all, one of my favourite reads is Mo Foster's book "17 Watts?".

If you've not read it, just go find a copy. Superb.

The title comes from the moment when his first band upgraded their one, shared combo to a WEM Dominator, rated at 17 watts.

They weren't sure what they were going to do with all that power ...

[Phil Starr]

I used to build PA systems in the early 70's. The problem then was lack of volume and that dominated everything. Backline had to often do the job of the PA and reach the back of the room. Early solid state amps struggled for power, the early WEM amps wouldn't really do 100W and the HH amps only gave a lttle more (I'll see your 2N3055 and raise it a 2N3773 Dad ) Valve amps were heavy and expensive. Speaker drive units were low powered due to the materials they were made of and burnt out frequently. As a consequence speakers for PA were huge with a lot of drive units and a lot of complex horns around. The sound quality of live bands was frankly fairly iffy most of the time as few people could afford enough gear to do much better and 'engineers' were making it up as they went along.

We didn't care though, it was our music and no-one had done it before so we didn't know any better, and it was louder than any music that we had ever heard.

So the reason we use more powerful amps is two fold. It's cheaper and so we can afford it and it makes more sense to ditch the huge, hyper efficient speakers and carry something manageable in terms of size and weight.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Phil Starr

[Lozz196]

I don`t think bands are louder now, it just seems that the quest for a cleaner tone has pushed amp power higher to me. Which seems counter productive imo seeing as whenever you hear an isolated bass track of one of the well-lauded songs, the bass is grindy, gainy, and not clean at all.

[CamdenRob]

In the early 90s I was still at school, so the only money I had for gear was from my Saturday job (£20 a week doesn't go far when you also have weed to buy)... I had a carlsbro viper 100, a H&H bass baby and a TE commando at various points... each of these amps was universally sh*t in every imaginable way... underpowered and weedy sounding.

Edited April 8, 2016 by CamdenRob

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='mr zed' timestamp='1460058425' post='3022288']
Watts are not a measure of volume, they are a measure of power. You need to be looking at the SPL. I swear my 900 watt class d Genz amp is not as loud as the 300 watt Mesa Walkabout I used to own.
[/quote]

I learned this a long time ago.

And yes, many bands are just TOO LOUD. I can't remember if it was as bad as this back in the day, but it's one of the reasons I don't get out to see bands much these days.

[TimR]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1460099344' post='3022480']
I used to build PA systems in the early 70's...

...makes more sense to ditch the huge, hyper efficient speakers and carry something manageable in terms of size and weight.
[/quote]

Absolutely.

The PA cabs we had were heavy and big. Something like 1m X 0.5m on the front and just as deep, made from pretty heavy chipboard or 3/4" ply. That was for 50w a side, but they were fairly loud.

[mr zed]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1460100751' post='3022495']


I learned this a long time ago.

[/quote]

Forgot about the TE 300 watt smx 4 x 12 combo that I used to own. WAY too loud and way too heavy so it had to go. Great tone though that would slice right through the mix.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1460101725' post='3022507']
The PA cabs we had were heavy and big. Something like 1m X 0.5m on the front and just as deep, made from pretty heavy chipboard or 3/4" ply. That was for 50w a side, but they were fairly loud.
[/quote]

But on t'other hand, all this were fields back then ...

[Japhet]

Pub gigs have always been determined by how loud the un-mic'd drums are. Some kits are very loud. I used to play in a band where the pot basher had a Pearl Export kit and a DW kit. I loved the Pearl kit because it meant the overall volume would be OK but if he brought the DW everything got way louder.

I also think the efficiency of modern cabs has improved massively with (crucially) much better sound dispersal. I use a 500W class D amp at about 30% in a fairly loud rock band and have masses of headroom. No idea why you would need more - unless you're trying kill the audience.

[oldbass]

This perceived volume increase appears to be across all areas of entertainment.

I work in the promotions industry and I've lost track of the number of recent events employing a large PA, inside and outdoors which were often being run so loud that I've seen little kids running around with their hands over their ears....madness.

Suffice to say I wear my custom plugs at all times. Bliss.

[taunton-hobbit]

I promoted in the 70's and employed many 'big' names.
The average amp power seemed to be about 100watts per band member.
(I got a lot of envy with the Ormats - smile).

[BobVbass]

I used to use a Carlsbro Stingray 90W head and a 4x12 Selmer cab - it was trouser flapping loud but run at 80% to get over the marshalls thst the guitarists used. The main issue wasn't the volume it was getting it up and down the stairs in my mum and dads house - it might have been lighter if it had been made of depleted uranium to be honest bloody thing!
Anyway we used to play miles louder on those days but couldn't actually hear anything - vocals were always the issue and probably one of the reasons I can sing in tune without hearing myself these days - we had no choice!

[discreet]

[quote name='ians' timestamp='1460106834' post='3022575']
I work in the promotions industry and I've lost track of the number of recent events employing a large PA, inside and outdoors which were often being run so loud that I've seen little kids running around with their hands over their ears....madness.
[/quote]

I had cause to accompany young master discreet to the pictures to see a film recently (he calls it 'cinema' and 'movie') and was quite appalled at the skeleton-rattling volume level of the soundtrack, which was obviously being relayed through a giant sound system. Luckily I had my earplugs in my pocket, but the levels really must have been dangerous for the kids' hearing. I complained to the manager on the way out, but he said 'that's how they like it'. Obviously he saw immediately that I was not included in 'they'.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1460108477' post='3022595']
I complained to the manager on the way out, but he said 'that's how they like it'.
[/quote]

Are you sure he didn't say, "that's the way, uh-huh uh-huh, they like it, uh-huh uh-huh"?

[discreet]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1460109005' post='3022606']
Are you sure he didn't say, "that's the way, uh-huh uh-huh, they like it, uh-huh uh-huh"?
[/quote]

Give It Up, Jack...

[PaulWarning]

maybe it just sounded louder in the 'old days' because everything was so distorted

[discreet]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1460109433' post='3022619']
maybe it just sounded louder in the 'old days' because everything was so distorted
[/quote]

Maybe it was louder than you think - remember, everyone had hair over their ears...

[BigRedX]

I'm sure bands are louder these days, but IME the sound is also much better and IIRC it's poor sound quality as much as anything that causes hearing damage. If there is distortion now it's intentional and generally musically pleasing rather than the horrible sound of power transistors and speaker cones being forced past their limit.

The sound at most of the gigs I went to in the late 70s and early 80s probably wasn't as loud as some these days but was generally horrible (Kraftwerk being a notable exception). Vocals were just about audible in that you could tell there was singing but good luck trying to make out the words, and always on the verge of feeding back. Everything else was a distorted mid-range-y wall of sound caused by having all the amps - both instrument and PA - running close to flat out. I'm sure if it had been economically possible to have been louder back then, it would have been.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1460109433' post='3022619']
maybe it just sounded louder in the 'old days' because everything was so distorted
[/quote]

Age-induced deafness changes one's perception, too. Everything is so much more muted and muffled these days; everybody's mumbling, it seems to me.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1460096417' post='3022455']...
The title comes from the moment when his first band upgraded their one, shared combo to a WEM Dominator, rated at 17 watts.

They weren't sure what they were going to do with all that power ...
[/quote]

Not quite analogous, but made me smile; brought back memories of the Atari 520, with its 68K proc. The Z80 and Intel machines at the time were limited to 64K direct memory access (8-bit...); suddenly this became 16- and 32-bit and we wondered, at the time, what the heck all that memory (a heady 512kb...) could be used for..! It seems like only yesterday..! The PC on which I type this has a fairly modest 12 Gb..! How times change.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1460096417' post='3022455']
The title comes from the moment when his first band upgraded their one, shared combo to a WEM Dominator, rated at 17 watts.
[/quote]

I currently have 2 800 watt amps, and each has more watts than my first 3 bands put together.

For my first gig the whole band, including PA, had 150 watts. You could hold a conversation anywhere in the room!

[chris_b]

[quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1460105512' post='3022555']
Pub gigs have always been determined by how loud the un-mic'd drums are
[/quote]

Not last week. The SRV style guitarist had to mic up the drums (he was a dep and playing quieter than the usual drummer) because he was getting swamped by the two of us! All very silly, but as I said before, the audience loved it!

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460109751' post='3022627']
Age-induced deafness changes one's perception, too. Everything is so much more muted and muffled these days; everybody's mumbling, it seems to me.
[/quote]i know what you mean, before I switch on my hearing aids was the world really that trebley when I was young? apparently so