Were pub/smaller venue bands quieter in the past?

[discreet]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460109751' post='3022627']
Age-induced deafness changes one's perception, too. Everything is so much more muted and muffled these days; everybody's mumbling, it seems to me.
[/quote]

...WHAT..??

[TimR]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1460111545' post='3022647']


Not last week. The SRV style guitarist had to mic up the drums (he was a dep and playing quieter than the usual drummer) because he was getting swamped by the two of us! All very silly, but as I said before, the audience loved it!
[/quote]

It really depends what style of music you're playing, your audience and the size of the venue.

The clue is always in the word 'appropriate' volume.

That's the hard thing to get across to a lot of bands. Nothing wrong with ear destroying volume in the right scenario, but as some people have said; they're staying away because it's too loud.

No one has ever complained that a band has been too quiet.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1460112123' post='3022659']
It really depends what style of music you're playing, your audience and the size of the venue.

The clue is always in the word 'appropriate' volume.

That's the hard thing to get across to a lot of bands. Nothing wrong with ear destroying volume in the right scenario, but as some people have said; they're staying away because it's too loud.

No one has ever complained that a band has been too quiet.
[/quote]

actually we have had it a couple of times where we have been asked to turn it up a bit and i always thought we were generally loud

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1460112123' post='3022659']
No one has ever complained that a band has been too quiet.
[/quote]

I refer my learned friend to [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/282636-were-pubsmaller-venue-bands-quieter-in-the-past/page__view__findpost__p__3022207"]this earlier post[/url]. :-)

[AndrewJordan]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1460111545' post='3022647']
Not last week. The SRV style guitarist had to mic up the drums (he was a dep and playing quieter than the usual drummer) because he was getting swamped by the two of us! All very silly, but as I said before, the audience loved it!
[/quote]

We always have to mic the kit no matter how small the venue. Drummer hits his cymbals so *kin hard you can't hear the rest of the kit, then the rest of us have to get loud enough to match him!

[Cosmo Valdemar]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1460096417' post='3022455']
Apropos of nothing at all, one of my favourite reads is Mo Foster's book "17 Watts?".

If you've not read it, just go find a copy. Superb.

The title comes from the moment when his first band upgraded their one, shared combo to a WEM Dominator, rated at 17 watts.

They weren't sure what they were going to do with all that power ...
[/quote]

Excellent book! A must-read. Now available in expanded form but with a very drab new cover and title:

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Rock-Guitar-Musicians-Stories/dp/0857160001"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Rock-Guitar-Musicians-Stories/dp/0857160001[/url]

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1460105512' post='3022555']
Pub gigs have always been determined by how loud the un-mic'd drums are. Some kits are very loud. I used to play in a band where the pot basher had a Pearl Export kit and a DW kit. I loved the Pearl kit because it meant the overall volume would be OK but if he brought the DW everything got way louder.
[/quote]

Never mind the drums: personally, I've found the drummers don't even need a kit in some cases. The last time I shared a hotel room with our drummer, I had to go to my guitar case in the middle of the night and fish around for my earplugs because of the volume of his snoring...

[AndrewJordan]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1460118841' post='3022756']
Never mind the drums: personally, I've found the drummers don't even need a kit in some cases. The last time I shared a hotel room with our drummer, I had to go to my guitar case in the middle of the night and fish around for my earplugs because of the volume of his snoring...
[/quote]

LOL we played a gig in york once and I was sure pub would let me kip on the floor. Anyway, they wouldn't have it so singer and his wife took pity on me and let me kip on floor of their hotel room. Just before dawn singers wife woke me up and said I would have to leave because she couldn't stand it any more. She said the snoring was bad enough but she had never heard such loud farts before

[TimR]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1460112932' post='3022672']


I refer my learned friend to [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/282636-were-pubsmaller-venue-bands-quieter-in-the-past/page__view__findpost__p__3022207"]this earlier post[/url]. :-)
[/quote]

As I say. Appropriate volume.

The people complaining were at the back. You turn up and the people at the front just talk louder.

In that situation, you're in a very difficult place. One half of the audience want background music, the other half want a concert.

In the majority of pub band cases where people have come to hear and see a band, you just won't be asked to turn it up louder than is necessary. Most modern PAs will be limited by feedback.

[LewisK1975]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1460126731' post='3022860']
As I say. Appropriate volume.

The people complaining were at the back. You turn up and the people at the front just talk louder.

In that situation, you're in a very difficult place. One half of the audience want background music, the other half want a concert.

In the majority of pub band cases where people have come to hear and see a band, you just won't be asked to turn it up louder than is necessary. Most modern PAs will be limited by feedback.
[/quote]

A particular favourite of mine (being the guy who controls our PA) is when a punter, who's been located completely out of proper earshot of the PA, tells me that our singer needs to be turned up. That's usually where the 'phantom' slider gets a nudge - (push an unused slider up a bit, 'Is that better mate?' - usually gets a thumbs up from said punter)

[BottomE]

I like playing quietly. Often the guitard will ask me to turn up and i'll say "No" everyone else turn down. The look of horror! Why do some people look like they've just dropped a bollock when you ask them to turn down?

I try and plot my volume to the room and drums.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='LewisK1975' timestamp='1460127045' post='3022866']
A particular favourite of mine (being the guy who controls our PA) is when a punter, who's been located completely out of proper earshot of the PA, tells me that our singer needs to be turned up. That's usually where the 'phantom' slider gets a nudge - (push an unused slider up a bit, 'Is that better mate?' - usually gets a thumbs up from said punter)
[/quote]I am that punter, usually asking them to turn down the bass drum

[discreet]

[quote name='LewisK1975' timestamp='1460127045' post='3022866']
That's usually where the 'phantom' slider gets a nudge - (push an unused slider up a bit, 'Is that better mate?' - usually gets a thumbs up from said punter)
[/quote]

Also known as the 'DFA' control...

[Ghost_Bass]

Sorry for the late replies

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1460044603' post='3022066']
drum kits have got louder?! Any reason you think that?
[/quote]

Yes, even though a drum kit is the same as in the 70's (just like guitars and basses) the construction and materials evolved and the use of more resonant materials give modern drums more punch (or tone depending on taste). Everything from cymbals to sticks to (can't remember the english word for the membrane of the drum, is it a skin?) to woods all contribute to the overal volume of a drum and i believe that today they [b]can[/b] be louder than before. On top of that these days most drummers playing at a pub with PA support will mic at least the kick drum and things become even louder.

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1460051883' post='3022174']
Only problem is that 1/2 way on ANY amp has no relation/bearing as to how loud you are or how much of the 500w is in use.
[/quote]

I've turned it up all the way for a wack, i know i have more than enough power on reserve past 12 o'clock and the cab to take it.

[LewisK1975]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1460127452' post='3022876']
I am that punter, usually asking them to turn down the bass drum
[/quote]
Not heard that one yet! Sure I will in due course mind you...

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1460127582' post='3022882']
Also known as the 'DFA' control...
[/quote]

[TimR]

[quote name='LewisK1975' timestamp='1460127045' post='3022866']


A particular favourite of mine (being the guy who controls our PA) is when a punter, who's been located completely out of proper earshot of the PA, tells me that our singer needs to be turned up. That's usually where the 'phantom' slider gets a nudge - (push an unused slider up a bit, 'Is that better mate?' - usually gets a thumbs up from said punter)
[/quote]

Ha. Yes I was the 'victim' of a DFA merchant. I told him there was no bass trough the PA. He smiled and nodded. Still no bass. I said try the solo PFA button, you have no signal. Que- embarrassed man in black tshirt running onto stage with new XLR cable and replacement DI box.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='AndrewJordan' timestamp='1460116400' post='3022717']
We always have to mic the kit no matter how small the venue. Drummer hits his cymbals so *kin hard you can't hear the rest of the kit, then the rest of us have to get loud enough to match him!
[/quote]

The answer could be to [i]not[/i] mic up, and [i]not[/i] turn up to match levels. Let Animal play his cymbal solo for a gig or two; if he doesn't realise what's going on, find a [i]real[/i] drummer (a [i]musician[/i], not a lumberjack...) and swap 'em.
Disclaimer: I'm a drummer. No drum kit needs micing up to make up for cymbal volume, period.

[Ghost_Bass]

I'll try to explain my point of view a bit better, using an example:

If i'm playing in a [u]big enough[/u] pub my drummer will want his entire kit going trough the PA to ensure that enough sound reaches the far end of the bar wilst retaining the tonal quality and EQ'd for the room. I understan why he wants it and agree with him because we, as a band, have the obligation to offer the best possible sound quality. Unfortunetly this makes the rest of the guitars and vocals to be loud enough on the PA to match the drum.

Back in the day bands didn't have mixers with enough channels to do that and PA's would not be able to cope with a drum (remember the OP is about pub/bar gigs) so the drum kit would go acoustic and the rest of the band leveled their volume to match it. In the pub i'm using as an example the drum wouldn't be heard very well in the back but so wouldn't be the rest of the band.

So IMO today we're louder but offer better sound quality so the overal sound doesn't bother the audience. From what i've been reading on other posts the main reason that people are saying that it was louder before is because everything was distorting but that doesn't necessarly means that it was louder in SPL levels. Modern kit is more powerfull and capable of providing more than enough clean tone and way louder. I can sit trough a loud concert if the sound is spot on but give a lower volume distorted sound and my earing gets tired sooner and i have to leave the room.



EDIT: after reading Dad's post, just to clarify, my drummer doesn't mic the cymbals, only the HH and he doesn't need to mic the drum to match them, he does it to balance it in the room.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Ghost_Bass

[luckydog]

Perception of loudness I think would be higher today because of the fashion for prominent upper mids and highs. Drums/cymbals about the same when unmiked, but the whole level gets set by drums really, and mic'ing is more common these days, and bass level has to fit to cover drum level. Louder today then on average, I think.
LD

[AndrewJordan]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460129180' post='3022922']
The answer could be to [i]not[/i] mic up, and [i]not[/i] turn up to match levels. Let Animal play his cymbal solo for a gig or two; if he doesn't realise what's going on, find a [i]real[/i] drummer (a [i]musician[/i], not a lumberjack...) and swap 'em.
Disclaimer: I'm a drummer. No drum kit needs micing up to make up for cymbal volume, period.
[/quote]

Tried that and got loads of people shouting "can't hear the guitars/vocals, turn em up" after that we went on at him for a while till he eventually got some lighter/quieter cymbals..................still overpowers the drums though. To be honest we quite like playing loud and most of the time the crowds seem to like it too.

[mr zed]

When I first started playing we used a hire a 150 watt 4 channel mixer amp and a couple of speakers for the vocals for each gig. No instruments through - the backline and drum levels were set to each other and the vocals introduced to match the music. The difference between then and now was attitude and expectation. We were a band playing in a pub. We set up at one end and if people wanted to watch the band they used to come closer and get involved. Now, we mic up to make sure everyone in the pub can hear us where ever they are. People's expectations have changed - they want a major gig experience in the Dog and Duck (myself included) and we want to give it to them.

[Kevin Dean]

For me some were louder but they sounded crap all guitar & bikers head banging . There was one band I remember in the early 80s that sounded excellent , the bass player had a Peavey 15" blackwidow combo , Guitarist Had a 15W session combo , & the PA was a Peavey XR600 & Kudos speakers , They simply based the volume around the bass drum . They had a great full sound not too quite & not too loud . My first Amp was a Fender bassman 135 , I now have a ABM1000 do I need it certainly not , I don't even need the volume of the ABM400 is capable of .I do however think the sound quality is better especially on D tuned stuff .

[Happy Jack]

I tried buying my overload drummer some lighter-weight sticks.

We still laugh about it.

Occasionally.

[TrevorR]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1460096417' post='3022455']
Apropos of nothing at all, one of my favourite reads is Mo Foster's book "17 Watts?".

If you've not read it, just go find a copy. Superb.

The title comes from the moment when his first band upgraded their one, shared combo to a WEM Dominator, rated at 17 watts.

They weren't sure what they were going to do with all that power ...
[/quote]

BEST. BOOK. EVER.

END. OF.

[PaulWarning]

tbh, I can't see why bands have to mic up the drum kit in pubs, we do put a bit of bass drum through the PA but that's it and the most heard comment when we come off is "you lot were bloody loud tonight, my ears are ringing" so unless the drummer is playing with knitting needles it does seem unnecessary, to me anyway