Were pub/smaller venue bands quieter in the past?

[TimR]

The proper way to mix for any venue is to get the vocals clear and distinct to the majority of the listeners. Then add the other instruments.

It's nonsense to regulate the band volume to the kit. Drummers who can't regulate their volume to appropriate levels need drum lessons. I won't play with any 'self taught' drummers anymore.

[TimR]

[quote name='mr zed' timestamp='1460181643' post='3023283']
...
The difference between then and now was attitude and expectation.

....

People's expectations have changed - they want a major gig experience in the Dog and Duck (myself included) and we want to give it to them.
[/quote]

Definitely this.

We used to play at parties, in people's houses!

Can you believe that?

A 4 piece band with drums in someone's front room.

Madness recorded their first album in the front room of one of their houses. Including a piano and saxophone!

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1460194389' post='3023390']
The proper way to mix for any venue is to get the vocals clear and distinct to the majority of the listeners. Then add the other instruments.

It's nonsense to regulate the band volume to the kit. Drummers who can't regulate their volume to appropriate levels need drum lessons. I won't play with any 'self taught' drummers anymore.
[/quote]unfortunately, the supply of drummers being what they are, some of us less accomplished musicians can't be quite so picky, not if we want to carry on gigging anyway

[chris_b]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1460194389' post='3023390']
The proper way to mix for any venue is to get the vocals clear and distinct to the majority of the listeners. Then add the other instruments.
[/quote]

I agree, totally.

I don't often end up in that situation but it is the right way to do things.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1460194389' post='3023390']
It's nonsense to regulate the band volume to the kit. Drummers who can't regulate their volume to appropriate levels need drum lessons. I won't play with any 'self taught' drummers anymore.
[/quote]

Totally, totally agree.

If a drummer can't adjust his volume then he's usually not worth playing with.

[Beer of the Bass]

I was in a local venue last night which has had to keep levels down due to a series of complaints. Their gear isn't amazing in there, but it's kind of refreshing to go to a gig where I'd be comfortable without earplugs in most parts of the room.

[TimR]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1460194962' post='3023394']
unfortunately, the supply of drummers being what they are, some of us less accomplished musicians can't be quite so picky, not if we want to carry on gigging anyway
[/quote]

Yes. My third point is a choice thing but the second point stands. The difficulty is how to get that through to them.

I played for years with a drummer who was bad with volume and tempo and every gig felt like a battle. It's refreshing playing with a good drummer.

[discreet]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1460195098' post='3023397']
If a drummer can't adjust his volume then he's usually not worth playing with.
[/quote][quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1460194962' post='3023394']
...unfortunately, the supply of drummers being what they are, some of us less-accomplished musicians can't be quite so picky...
[/quote]

Both valid points. We took a step sideways and dispensed with the services of a drummer entirely. It's now very easy for us to get a great sound wherever we play, we don't have to put up with someone taking up the whole stage before, after and during a gig, there's nothing stopping us from playing really quietly if we want to and we no longer wonder where the drummer has got to when we need to start our set and have to send someone to fetch him from the pub down the road because he's a feckless alcoholic.

Nor do we have to ferry him and his kit everywhere we go as he refuses to drive and has no transport. Neither we nor our audience miss having drums whatsoever, as between us we cover both the necessary frequency range and rhythmic aspects.

Having said that, I do realise that there are types of band and genres of music where drums are essential. So YMMV.

I am also quite sure that all the drummers who for some reason are on this bass forum are lovely people who behave properly, can play quietly when required and have their own equipment and transport.

Edited April 9, 2016 by discreet

[alyctes]

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but it seems likely. It's cheaper to buy kit; and things generally are getting louder - fireworks being a prime example. What's not happening is that people are getting more grown-up, to treat their added power in a more mature way.

[gafbass02]

Having just bought an old trace ah250 I did an a/b 'heft test' against my 500w markbass through the same cabs.

The markbass seemed 'as loud' but more focused, the trace just had more....


...Heft!


So that was worth doing.

Edited April 9, 2016 by gafbass02

[Dad3353]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1460196395' post='3023413']...
I am also quite sure that all the drummers who for some reason are on this bass forum are lovely people who behave properly, can play quietly when required and have their own equipment and transport.
[/quote]

Indeed. Of course. What else..?

...

Edited April 9, 2016 by Dad3353

[TimR]

[quote name='gafbass02' timestamp='1460209349' post='3023662']
Having just bought an old trace ah250 I did an a/b 'heft test' against my 500w markbass through the same cabs.

The markbass seemed 'as loud' but more focused, the trace just had more....


...Heft!


So that was worth doing.
[/quote]

I think the consensus is that the cabs have become more efficient and capable of handling more power.

I suspect the ampeg 8x10 was used for a reason.

As you add more cabs you get more volume from the power available. It's a funny thing.

[peteb]

I’m going to go against the grain and say that good [b][i]rock[/i][/b] drummers tend to be loud. That’s just the way it is! Go on YouTube and look at all the top guys who get all the big gigs and you will see that in addition to being great technicians they are all pretty loud. Kenny Aronoff (an orchestrally trained percussionist) is a monster, as is Josh Freese, etc. Even someone like Gregg Bissonette isn’t what you would call quiet.

I want to play with drummers who have good time, feel and (yes) power. Of course a lot of them are pretty loud, which is why I went and got proper hearing protection. A lot of the worse drummers I have played with have been some of the quietest.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1460220014' post='3023809']
I’m going to go against the grain and say that good [b][i]rock[/i][/b] drummers tend to be loud. That’s just the way it is! Go on YouTube and look at all the top guys who get all the big gigs and you will see that in addition to being great technicians they are all pretty loud. Kenny Aronoff (an orchestrally trained percussionist) is a monster, as is Josh Freese, etc. Even someone like Gregg Bissonette isn’t what you would call quiet.

I want to play with drummers who have good time, feel and (yes) power. Of course a lot of them are pretty loud, which is why I went and got proper hearing protection. A lot of the worse drummers I have played with have been some of the quietest.
[/quote]

Those big names (and they are all truly great...) won't be playing loud (I mean, not [i]overly [/i]loud...) when they're playing pubs or smaller venues, whatever the style. They know how to get what's required from the kit at the volume and dynamic that the venue needs; that's [i]why [/i]they're great. Yes, in an outdoor festival, or a stadium gig, or even the Woodstick halls, the volume can go up; they're miced up, too, for the PA, but also for recording.the event. In such a venue, I play louder,too; that's not a problem. When playing pubs and clubs, however, one plays rock 'reigned in'. There is only one reason why some drummers don't, and that's because they can't. It's a skill, it's not magic, just ordinary, good, solid, technical ability that can, and should, be learned and applied. If not, then I maintain the term 'lumberjack', not 'drummer'.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Dad3353

[BottomE]

Looking back at older films and photos, people tended to have bigger ears. Could be a factor.

[peteb]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460224613' post='3023878']
Those big names (and they are all truly great...) won't be playing loud (I mean, not [i]overly [/i]loud...) when they're playing pubs or smaller venues, whatever the style. They know how to get what's required from the kit at the volume and dynamic that the venue needs; that's [i]why [/i]they're great. Yes, in an outdoor festival, or a stadium gig, or even the Woodstick halls, the volume can go up; they're miced up, too, for the PA, but also for recording.the event. In such a venue, I play louder,too; that's not a problem. When playing pubs and clubs, however, one plays rock 'reigned in'. There is only one reason why some drummers don't, and that's because they can't. It's a skill, it's not magic, just ordinary, good, solid, technical ability that can, and should, be learned and applied. If not, then I maintain the term 'lumberjack', not 'drummer'.
[/quote]
I’m sorry but I don’t believe for a second that Kenny Aronoff would ever go out and play a rock gig in public (in a club or wherever) at anything less than full pelt. After all, he has a reputation to uphold.

And so have I, although obviously to a far far lesser degree. No rock band that I have been in would expect a drummer to ‘reign in’ their playing – it’s full beans or nothing! Frankly I would not go and see a band that would do that. Whenever we take a pub gig I always ask the landlord if he has any serious noise issues and if his crowd want to see a pretty loud rock band. Obviously there are some gigs that we can’t do but we still get plenty of work and draw a healthy crowd, mainly because they know that we will never ‘reign in’ a performance!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1460241439' post='3024037']
I’m sorry but I don’t believe for a second that Kenny Aronoff would ever go out and play a rock gig in public (in a club or wherever) at anything less than full pelt. After all, he has a reputation to uphold.

And so have I, although obviously to a far far lesser degree. No rock band that I have been in would expect a drummer to ‘reign in’ their playing – it’s full beans or nothing! Frankly I would not go and see a band that would do that. Whenever we take a pub gig I always ask the landlord if he has any serious noise issues and if his crowd want to see a pretty loud rock band. Obviously there are some gigs that we can’t do but we still get plenty of work and draw a healthy crowd, mainly because they know that we will never ‘reign in’ a performance!
[/quote]

A misunderstanding here, I think. By 'reigning in', I mean from a volume point of view, not in intensity of performance. I, too, play rock, amongst other styles; I had, for weddings and the like in smallish restaurant halls, a set of elasticated cotton 'shower hats' which could slip over the toms and snare, cutting down the volume enormously, but retaining a pretty decent 'crack' when using rim-shots. Brushes, hot-rods, even mallets... they all help to give the tone required, in any circumstances. How many TV shows are to be seen with a drummer belting away like billy-o, but muted by the pads on the drums and cymbals..? Big players, playing big venues, can go full-tilt; when they play smaller places, they play the same way, but quieter. I maintain, stubbornly, that rock does not [i]have [/i]to be loud. Intense, yes, exciting, pulsing, hard-driven... All of that and more, but not [i]necessarily [/i]loud. Play as you wish, and good for you, but please don't tell me it can't be done. It can; all good drummers know how to, and do so.

[peteb]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460243295' post='3024053']
A misunderstanding here, I think. By 'reigning in', I mean from a volume point of view, not in intensity of performance. I, too, play rock, amongst other styles; I had, for weddings and the like in smallish restaurant halls, a set of elasticated cotton 'shower hats' which could slip over the toms and snare, cutting down the volume enormously, but retaining a pretty decent 'crack' when using rim-shots. Brushes, hot-rods, even mallets... they all help to give the tone required, in any circumstances. How many TV shows are to be seen with a drummer belting away like billy-o, but muted by the pads on the drums and cymbals..? Big players, playing big venues, can go full-tilt; when they play smaller places, they play the same way, but quieter. I maintain, stubbornly, that rock does not [i]have [/i]to be loud. Intense, yes, exciting, pulsing, hard-driven... All of that and more, but not [i]necessarily [/i]loud. Play as you wish, and good for you, but please don't tell me it can't be done. It can; all good drummers know how to, and do so.
[/quote]
A mate of mine (not an excessively loud drummer by any means) once said that he always needs to be playing loud enough so that ‘everyone can feel the backbeat’. Another mate who has been a pro for 30 years with a decent CV (including one really famous singer) and a well-known local drum teacher joined a decent paying function band and found that he could not play quiet enough for many of the gigs they did. His solution was to buy an electronic kit, which he hated but at least he could turn down to an acceptable level.

Obviously there are some compromises that you have to make when playing smaller gigs and no one wants an excessively loud drummer. But you certainly don't want to compromise too much. The audience will notice and you will sound poor compared to better bands on the circuit who stick to their guns.

Also, you have to accept that a drum will actually sound better if it is hit harder! Why do you think that John Bonham is still being sampled to this day and and is used as a reference for so many drum sounds? I remember an old interview with Rod Morgenstein where he talked about an early rock session he played where a producer was trying to get him to play less notes on the snare but to hit it harder. This was alien to Morgenstein, who came from a fusion background, so the producer got him to play two different grooves over the same track; one in his normal style with lots of grace notes and one playing harder but with fewer hits on the snare. The producer then got him to listen to the two different takes and see which one worked better. As a result Morgenstein said that he rethought his approach to playing rock music and cultivated a more Bonhamesque feel, playing less and hitting harder!

[TimR]

As you say Pete, and it's the key point, you check with the landlord that it will be acceptable and don't play there if it isn't.

Appropriate volume. Again.

There's no point in turning up to play the gig and arguing all night with the landlord that "It has to be loud." If he is going to lose his pub license due to antisocial noise, you're not going to be asked back.

Do these big name, big hitter, drummers ever play in their local pubs? I know plenty of drummers who say there is no point in playing certain venues as they will just be too loud for them.

I'm sure they are quite capable of playing quietly, you can't play loudly all night. Without quiet sections everything is the same volume and you miss about 99% of what music is all about.

[Lozz196]

Last year we played with a couple of bands in a local music venue pub. We just played at our regular volume and the room was packed. They turned up to insane volumes and the only people watching them was us - and that was out of a bit of musicians solidarity, though I did stand behind one of the columns in said venue to alleviate the volume slightly. And this is a venue which has music every week, so the people who go there are used to live music - but they all bolted.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1460281879' post='3024247']
Last year we played with a couple of bands in a local music venue pub. We just played at our regular volume and the room was packed. They turned up to insane volumes and the only people watching them was us - and that was out of a bit of musicians solidarity, though I did stand behind one of the columns in said venue to alleviate the volume slightly. And this is a venue which has music every week, so the people who go there are used to live music - but they all bolted.
[/quote]at our local music/pub venue they got there own in house PA and sound man in the end to stop that sort of thing

[peteb]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1460269721' post='3024123']
As you say Pete, and it's the key point, you check with the landlord that it will be acceptable and don't play there if it isn't.

Appropriate volume. Again.

There's no point in turning up to play the gig and arguing all night with the landlord that "It has to be loud." If he is going to lose his pub license due to antisocial noise, you're not going to be asked back.

Do these big name, big hitter, drummers ever play in their local pubs? I know plenty of drummers who say there is no point in playing certain venues as they will just be too loud for them.

I'm sure they are quite capable of playing quietly, you can't play loudly all night. Without quiet sections everything is the same volume and you miss about 99% of what music is all about.
[/quote]
There is a problem in that you often get landlords who come into the business as music fans and want to promote live music, but their pubs are just not suited to it i.e. too small or a funny shaped room or (most importantly) noise problems with neighbours. IME it is best to just avoid those places like the plaque. Appropriate volume is the key thing and unfortunately you will just not be able to play at an appropriate volume at these gigs.

I am sure that many of the big name, big hitter, drummers will play the occasional bar gig or small club. After all I know that top bass player Leland Sklar says that he does and I assume that he will be playing these gigs with a drummer! However, you can bet it won’t be at the type of pub described above.

No one wants to see a band who are excessively or uncomfortably loud. And as far as drummers go, there is nothing worse than playing with one with no technique and who can’t balance out the way he plays i.e. bashes his cymbals so loud to leave your ears ringing for days afterwards but you can’t hear his bass drum. All good musicians should be able to play with a good command of dynamics, but to get a full dynamic range you have to be reasonably loud to start with. Bear in mind that a 100 piece symphony orchestra will utilise a fuller range of dynamics than you will find with any musical ensemble, but they will be way louder than any rock band!

My main point is that there seems to be a general opinion on Basschat that a good drummer is a quiet drummer, and that is not the case…

Edited April 10, 2016 by peteb

[Dad3353]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1460284772' post='3024308']...a good drummer is a quiet drummer, and that is not the case…
[/quote]

... and I would claim that a good drummer is one able to play all styles at all appropriate levels. Quiet when it's not needed to be loud, loud when it's appropriate. I've nothing against playing drums loud (I even moved to an isolated cottage in the country to be able to..!), but fitting one's technique to the circumstances is, in my view and experience, part of the package. A drummer incapable of playing 'forcefully' is not fully accomplished; nor is one incapable of turning down.

[chris_b]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1460284772' post='3024308']
My main point is that there seems to be a general opinion on Basschat that a good drummer is a quiet drummer, and that is not the case…
[/quote]

A good drummer is on who uses his ears and understands that he is playing in a band.

[peteb]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1460287992' post='3024341']


A good drummer is on who uses his ears and understands that he is playing in a band.
[/quote]
I would have thought that applied to all musicians.

[peteb]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1460286048' post='3024318']


... and I would claim that a good drummer is one able to play all styles at all appropriate levels.
[/quote]
Really??

Would you expect a drummer who plays in a small jazz ensemble to be equally convincing in a Metallica tribute??