The HandBox Amplification thread

[Woody1957]

8 hours ago, Bunion said:

I have a present for the Handbox WB 100 tomorrow 

 

 

a little less gain but a little more headroom. 
I’ve heard good things but we shall see…

 

Watford valves?

[Bunion]

8 minutes ago, Woody1957 said:

Watford valves?

Off the Fleabay, New Old Stock 
 

Edited April 16, 2022 by Bunion

[dmccombe7]

Look forward to your review when fitted.

I've spoken to HB about a WB-100 so anything on that amp will be much appreciated.

Dave

[Woody1957]

10 hours ago, Bunion said:

Off the Fleabay, New Old Stock 
 

I've put Electro Harmonix in my R400, as suggested by the guy at Watford (l cant remember his name but very knowledgeable) and they sound really sweet!

[Jaybeevee]

1 hour ago, Woody1957 said:

I've put Electro Harmonix in my R400, as suggested by the guy at Watford (l cant remember his name but very knowledgeable) and they sound really sweet!

did you replace all three or just number one? What diffetence did you notice?

[Bunion]

2 hours ago, Woody1957 said:

I've put Electro Harmonix in my R400, as suggested by the guy at Watford (l cant remember his name but very knowledgeable) and they sound really sweet!

I’ve just opened mine up and have all Electro Harmonix 12ax7’s in the amp, I’ve replaced V1 with the Jan Phillips and off to do some testing 😄

[Jaybeevee]

3 minutes ago, Bunion said:

I’ve just opened mine up and have all Electro Harmonix 12ax7’s in the amp, I’ve replaced V1 with the Jan Phillips and off to do some testing 😄

Nice, look forward to the report..

[Woody1957]

15 hours ago, Jaybeevee said:

did you replace all three or just number one? What diffetence did you notice?

I replaced all 3 as soon as l bought it from this site second hand. I didn't really want to gig with valves which were already 3 years old so l couldn't compare them tbh. 

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, Woody1957 said:

I replaced all 3 as soon as l bought it from this site second hand. I didn't really want to gig with valves which were already 3 years old so l couldn't compare them tbh. 

 

My Hiwatt 200 has its original valves from the '60s, as does my Fender Bassman 50. Our Eldest (guitar...) used his Laney VC50 for years with the same set, which are still in it, and now uses a Mesa Simul-Class 2:90; never changed a valve (nor needed to...). It's true we gig much less, now, but all our gear has seen multiple stages and festivals. We've just been lucky, I suppose. 

[dmccombe7]

I read on one of the bass company websites that power valves will last longer if you dont overdrive them a lot. I thik you can have the bias voltage reduced to prevent aggressive overdrive on the valves. 

Might have been HB website or possibly Ashdown i read it. It mentioned power valves can last up to 10 yrs if not overdriven so i guess it all depends on how you use the amp.

Guitarists in both my bands have all tube amps and they've never changed any valves as long as i've known them.

I specifically asked the guitarist in one of my bands who uses either a Peavey or Marshall all valve head in the punk band and he's had the Peavey a long time (several years) and he's never replaced a valve.

Dave

[Dad3353]

5 hours ago, dmccombe7 said:

I read on one of the bass company websites that power valves will last longer if you dont overdrive them a lot. I thik you can have the bias voltage reduced to prevent aggressive overdrive on the valves. 

Might have been HB website or possibly Ashdown i read it. It mentioned power valves can last up to 10 yrs if not overdriven so i guess it all depends on how you use the amp.

Guitarists in both my bands have all tube amps and they've never changed any valves as long as i've known them.

I specifically asked the guitarist in one of my bands who uses either a Peavey or Marshall all valve head in the punk band and he's had the Peavey a long time (several years) and he's never replaced a valve.

Dave

 

Yes, indeed. For power valves, the bias determines to a large extent, not just the 'tone', but also the longevity. That rich, creamy, 'Hendrix' 'Marshall cranked' tone came from a very hot bias, and explains why so many amps of the sort blew up or caught fire on stage, needing back-up amps pre-plugged to be switched in to continue the show. An expensive business, even back then, and source of much voodoo concerning valve reliablility. Correctly biased, and using a solid-state pedal nowadays for 'that sound', a valve amp will perform well for years, or decades for the good ones.
The pre-amp valves are a very different affair, as different gains and noise-less versions of compatible valves can be chosen, to suit one's style and preference. Very little aging goes on in those valves (an exeptional 'duff' one may come up, but it's not a common 'thing' for pre-amp valves to get 'worn out'...). Once one has the set that does the job required, they may be forgotten. It can be useful, as a learning exercise, to swap an ECC81 for an ECC83, or vice versa, or a low-microphonic in an early pre-amp stage, but once the sound is right, they won't need regular maintenance, in general, whatever the usage. I've known discotheques and cinemas with valve equipment that ran for years, pumping out high volume night after night, with no maintenance whatever. True, they were 'static', so not subject to transport aleas, but breakage is a different issue.
Just sayin'. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Dad3353

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Woody1957 said:

 I didn't really want to gig with valves which were already 3 years old 

 

Why not? They have a lifespan of about 30,000 hours, so if they have been gigged for 3 hours every night for 3 years you would still have another 6 years of the same schedule before they are getting towards their ends of life.

 

If I picked up an old amp for a recondition I would be far more concerned about the conditions of the capacitors than the valves.

[Dad3353]

3 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

... I would be far more concerned about the conditions of the capacitors than the valves.

 

Word. 

[Bunion]

So, I’ve run the 12at7 in the V1 position and It’s great. 
Gain is definitely lower, I noticed the drop in volume as soon as I plugged in but a couple of notches on the volume or depressing the drive button picked it back up.
What it has allowed me to do is get a much higher gain and volume setting without the tube break up, just clean rich tone.
It’s fruity, it’s juicy, but creamy too, it’s got a growl if I dig in.

The notes sound punchy and really tight

The string noise is a little more defined but in that raspy way that sounds great with a bass, if you like that (I love it.)

The highs seem a little cleaner and chords are just singing. 
Of course this is what I want to hear so I’m plugging the 12ax7 back in for the afternoon.

I need to get it to a practice with the band to test it properly but so far it’s a positive. 
 

 

[agedhorse]

7 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Why not? They have a lifespan of about 30,000 hours, so if they have been gigged for 3 hours every night for 3 years you would still have another 6 years of the same schedule before they are getting towards their ends of life.

 

If I picked up an old amp for a recondition I would be far more concerned about the conditions of the capacitors than the valves.

Preamp tubes/valves when designed reasonably are typically good for a lifespan pf between 7,500 and 10,000 hours with some that will make it to 15,000 hours and some failing earlier. I see so many perfectly good tubes/valves replaced without any consideration that what's being installed may in fact have higher failure rates due to infant mortality (first ~200 hours)

 

On a 3 years old amp, capacitors aren't even barely "broken in". Typical lifespans when designed/selected properly runs in the 15,000 - 30,000 hour range, but I have some that I have seen well beyond that. I have however seen a lot of damage from folks who think a capacitor change-out is a maintenance item that should be done every 10 year or so (fueled by a bunch of bad information on the internet). 

[dmccombe7]

Coming from an Instrument / electronics background i dont recall ever routinely changing capacitors on kit and some of that kit has been and is still running since 76. All this capacitor replacement talk has been a bit of an eye-opener for me and quite a surprise altho i'm coming from a chemical industry background.

Dave

[Dad3353]

4 minutes ago, agedhorse said:

... a capacitor change-out is a maintenance item that should be done every 10 year or so (fueled by a bunch of bad information on the internet). 

 There are capacitors and capacitors, some of which will 'age' even without use (or because they're not used enough, for some..!). More an issue for 'vintage' gear (too early to tell for some of the cheaper modern ones, although the technologies have evolved greatly...). A decent gear tech will recognise the signs pre-failure of the usual suspects, and will replace  often enough with a more modern, more reliable piece. I've original valves in my Bassman, but the state of the main caps was... dreadful..! Not through over-use, just by aging. The heat in some amps is poorly dissipated, too, so the circuit boards (if there are boards...) and valve sockets, can deteriorate. Again, there are 'usual suspects', known by good techs.
It's Good Practise, not to swap out components, but to have a routine check done by a competent tech every so often (Yearly..? A bit much. Five-yearly..? Reasonable, I'd say...)

[Dad3353]

12 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

Coming from an Instrument / electronics background i dont recall ever routinely changing capacitors on kit and some of that kit has been and is still running since 76. All this capacitor replacement talk has been a bit of an eye-opener for me and quite a surprise altho i'm coming from a chemical industry background.

Dave

 

As stated above, there are electrolytic capacitors from 'back then' that dry out, and did not have the benefit of modern mylars and the like. Paper/oil is common, with a varnish or wax sealed top. Even if hoarded from new (garage find..? New Old Stock..?) some items will fail, explode, ignite or blow fuses when switched on for the very first time, just through aging. It's a Very Good Idea to have someone Good look over any 'vintage' amp before plugging in; in rare cases, they can become mortally dangerous. Just sayin'. 

 

Fender-type caps...

 

Another common type of cap (note the bulging...)...

 

WARNING..! Do not try to test items like this yourselves. Even switched off and unplugged, these components can carry lethal tensions, for quite some time. Expertise is required in servicing valve amps, and proper procedures carried out to ensure safety. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Dad3353

[dmccombe7]

We did have an issue with capacitors on a turbine magnetic bearing system where we changed out alll boards with a specific capacitor that was known to fail after time. Fortunately none of ours actually failed but others on different sites did.

I had forgotten about that but it was a good few years ago.

It was one of those "common faults" that the French manufacturer had picked up when they examined their own failure rates.

Oh happy days. 

The joy of spending 39hrs in a trot trying to resolve breakdown issues at work. Happy days 

Thankfully i'm well away from that sort of stress.

Dave

[Woodinblack]

59 minutes ago, agedhorse said:

On a 3 years old amp, capacitors aren't even barely "broken in". Typical lifespans when designed/selected properly runs in the 15,000 - 30,000 hour range, but I have some that I have seen well beyond that. I have however seen a lot of damage from folks who think a capacitor change-out is a maintenance item that should be done every 10 year or so (fueled by a bunch of bad information on the internet). 

wasn't talking about a 3 year old amp, I wouldn't expect it to be anything other than perfect at that age, and I wouldn't routinely change anything.

I was referring to when you get one of those old valve amps from the 60s or 70s

 

 

[agedhorse]

On 17/04/2022 at 12:57, Woodinblack said:

wasn't talking about a 3 year old amp, I wouldn't expect it to be anything other than perfect at that age, and I wouldn't routinely change anything.

I was referring to when you get one of those old valve amps from the 60s or 70s

 

 

I was addressing your comment about 3 year old amps and tubes, you suggested being more worried about caps. I now see that you also mentioned old amps.

[Woodinblack]

3 hours ago, agedhorse said:

I was addressing your comment about 3 year old amps and tubes, you suggested being more worried about caps. I now see that you also mentioned old amps.

 

Sorry for any confusion, no, I wouldn't replace any part of any amp that wasn't working or showing any physical signs of damage. And on an amp that was only 3 years old I wouldn't expect to find either of those things.

[Woody1957]

On 17/04/2022 at 10:15, Woody1957 said:

I replaced all 3 as soon as l bought it from this site second hand. I didn't really want to gig with valves which were already 3 years old so l couldn't compare them tbh. 

I should have also added that when I opened up the amp I found that all 3 valves did not have a brand name on them, hence the reason for swapping them out.

[agedhorse]

21 minutes ago, Woody1957 said:

I should have also added that when I opened up the amp I found that all 3 valves did not have a brand name on them, hence the reason for swapping them out.

That’s not uncommon for OEM valves, some manufacturers purchase them unlabeled or labeled with a code only. This is especially true if they have an arrangement to test/screen all parts and return those that don’t part their test criteria. 

[dmccombe7]

44 minutes ago, agedhorse said:

That’s not uncommon for OEM valves, some manufacturers purchase them unlabeled or labeled with a code only. This is especially true if they have an arrangement to test/screen all parts and return those that don’t part their test criteria. 

I didn't know that either. Even outwith Mesa forum you are a wealth of knowledge to us all @agedhorse. 

Always appreciated.

Dave