chris_b Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1460805960' post='3028914'] It's in France so who knows but in the UK it's illegal, actually fraud. [/quote] I suppose he could be topping up what ever is in the jug to make what he's agreed to pay the band. Which I guess isn't fraud. Barristers make a very good living splitting these hairs. IMO the band is only getting ripped off if they end up being paid less than they were lead to believe they would get. Like my band gigging in a Paris club for a percentage of the bar takings. We only found out at the end that it didn't include credit card sales, which were a very large part of the evenings take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SICbass Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 [quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1460792235' post='3028716'] Yes, last night was the first time there had been an audience collection. I obviously can't comment on other band nights but the first time, in our four gigs. Strangely enough, it was the busiest it had ever been there last night with us playing with some people even doing a 150km round trip to see us. He also provides meals and by his admission was fully booked to the point that the band were going to have to eat outside in the rain or in their lounge upstairs. [/quote] In that case, I can understand your being miffed at the pub boss. If a precedent had been set, albeit tacetly, that there was a fee from him and now the hat/jug/receptical was additionally being sent round for the band, he's moving the goalposts. Might it be better to approach the landlord and express your unhappiness with this new arrangement? Making it clear that, in future, you want a different deal and expressing clearly how that deal would look? It may be possible to resolve this problem without having to lose a gig and disappoint faithful fans of the band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 [quote name='SICbass' timestamp='1460809632' post='3028968'] Might it be better to approach the landlord and express your unhappiness with this new arrangement? Making it clear that, in future, you want a different deal and expressing clearly how that deal would look? It may be possible to resolve this problem without having to lose a gig and disappoint faithful fans of the band. [/quote] Definitely talk to the guy and get his views on it! You never know, he may have a perfectly reasonable explanation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 We're all just trying to guess the owner's reasons for passing around the pot. If the owner's motivation was: "I hope there's a gonna be a few Euros in the pot, to ease the burden on me to meet the band's fee" I would say that's perfectly reasonable. If, on the other hand, it's: "I can easily afford to pay the band, I've made loadsa money from the bar thanks to the suckers on stage, and now I'm gonna pass the pot around and make even more money thanks to the suckers in the audience." Then I just might be a bit miffed. Unless you ask him outright we'll never know. None of us are mind readers, In this case I would say "benefit of the doubt" would be in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 (edited) [quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1460812674' post='3029004'] '...now I'm gonna pass the pot around and make even more money...' [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Unless you ask him outright we'll never know.[/font][/color] [/quote] True, you never know. He may have a high-maintenance girlfriend, in which case he has my full sympathy and support. Edited April 16, 2016 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 If the band are a cut-above in terms of takings... then agree the standard fee, agree the terms of a bonus if you hit that target and then you have made your money. The LL can then take the pot ... but he can't say it is for THE band...but he can say it is to keep music live. Punters will then decide whether they contribute. It is all about how he sold that collection... I think you have to know how the guy operates to judge which side of the fence the deal sits. Calling it the band pot is tacky...and dodgy. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norris Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 The thing to do imho is to get whoever took the booking to call the landlord and find out what was going on. It may well be that he gets a budget from the brewery for entertainment, which would make the pot passing very dodgy if he didn't pass the money on to the band. Call him and find out why the pot was passed - it might have been a legitimate subsidy of his budget, but he should be open about it. We have had situations before where we've been on basic fee plus pot takings - that's fine. We've also had one passed around to encourage us to do more encores - that's ok too as we got the "bonus". What is not fine is the punters thinking they are paying for the band and the money ending up in the landlord's pocket. Nobody likes to feel they have been ripped off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1460805960' post='3028914'] I'm with the OP though, you get to a point where dealing with dodgy dishonest B*******s just leaves such a nasty taste that life is too short to put up with it. [/quote] Well, we are in (even if peripherally) the music business, and that's full of dodgy dishonest bastards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4stringslow Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 Another thought. Could the problem be a misinterpretation of 'for the band'? Yes, it could mean 'this is a collection that will be given to the band' and thus give rise to bad feelings when it wasn't, but OTOH it could mean 'for the band that I have arranged for your entertainment'. If the latter, then the landlord would seem to be behaving quite reasonably. It's his venue, he's organised the band, he's agreed a fee with them, he's paid them the agreed fee, and he's passed the hat around his customers for their appreciation of his choice of band. Obviously, without hearing the landlord's side of things we'll never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 As I see it, he's asking for a contribution toward the band's fee. It's his venue, I don't see how he's being underhand, or dishonest. He's given the money, plus some from him to the band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1460821060' post='3029096'] As I see it, he's asking for a contribution toward the band's fee. It's his venue, I don't see how he's being underhand, or dishonest. He's given the money, plus some from him to the band. [/quote] [quote]... [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Had he not collected any money "for the band" I would have been perfectly happy with my smaller than usual, but agreed upon fee but the people putting notes into the glass were obviously under the impression that the band would benefit from it yet only the owner has because, his contribution to the cost of the band is now much smaller. He was collecting for him, not us. I see this as immoral and dishonest and no different from collecting charity donations and then keeping it.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif] [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]...[/quote][/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Collecting money for himself would be fine. Giving the impression that it's monies going to be given to the band is not. That's (app[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]arently...) the perception. The actual intention is only speculation, of course, but, given the quote above, it doesn't look good.[/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 I think we ought to have a whip-round. The money can rest in my account until we decide how to spend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1460823661' post='3029131'] I think we ought to have a whip-round. The money can rest in my account until we decide how to spend it. [/quote] Fair enough, I'll chuck a couple of bob in the hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
largo Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 I really don't see any problem with it. You agreed a fee & I presume got paid it. How the bar manager finds that cash is up to him, pay at the door, a few pence on a pint, pass round a hat. Isn't that called business? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydog Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 It's not good for the punters, who might reasonably expect tips to be tips, ie a bonus paid straight to the band. It's not good for the band, who might reasonably expect tips to be tips. The more popular the band is, the more in the tip jar, the cheaper it is for the landlord ........er what ???!?? Don't think I'd go back........ LD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 [quote name='luckydog' timestamp='1460825191' post='3029158'] It's not good for the punters, who might reasonably expect tips to be tips, ie a bonus paid straight to the band. It's not good for the band, who might reasonably expect tips to be tips. The more popular the band is, the more in the tip jar, the cheaper it is for the landlord ........er what ???!?? Don't think I'd go back........ LD [/quote] But as I say. The punters have no idea whether the jar is tips or wherever it's the band's total pay. And I suspect they don't really care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydog Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 (edited) Ah well there we differ, TimR. I think it's implicit in the word 'tip' in the mind of the tipper that tips go to those who provide the service. Well that's what's in my mind when I put my contri......and I do care, not sure what I'd think as a punter of passing a tip jar round for the landlord ! Probably fine if it is clear......... LD Edited April 16, 2016 by luckydog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnDave Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 (edited) Got to agree with Mr Dog, above. In my local, people used to tip the bar staff on the understanding that they got the tips, when it emerged that the landlord (no names, but anyone who knows me will know which Australian I mean!) was in the habit of taking the contents of the tip jar for himself, everyone stopped tipping. Edited April 16, 2016 by FinnDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maude Posted April 16, 2016 Share Posted April 16, 2016 I put some money in the bank last year but when I drew it out last week it wasn't my money, I put two fifty pence pieces in but they gave me a pound coin. Same thing isn't it? Landlord has a collection for the band and then gives the band their money Might not be the same coins and notes but you got your money. I can see how it might make you feel but it's up to the LL how he gets the money for your fee. Without any more information you have to just accept that he paid you your fee and everyone, including you had a great night. Job done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leschirons Posted April 17, 2016 Author Share Posted April 17, 2016 (edited) Well, In the true spirit of Bass chat, I must recant my earlier ravings and also wholeheartedly apologise to all who's time I've wasted in reading, and commenting on my original statement. I've just got back from a wedding gig having obviously met with the band on arrival. I was met by the drummer and guitarist who at this point, were up for not playing there again. Our singer arrives and informs us all (including her own husband LOL) that collecting from the audience had always been the case and had been mentioned at the original booking a year ago. We had never seen a collection before as it was apparently usually done at the bar, when people settled their bar tabs and food bill for the night upon leaving. I guess we would normally be clearing away at this point. She didn't see this as anything worth mentioning at the time and so it was forgotten. I'm not blaming her for my wrong assumption in any way and it was my fault that I didn't check what she'd slipped in my pocket at the time as I had a monitor in each hand. I only looked on the way home so all this would have been avoided had I checked whilst still there. I hold my hands up 100% for jumping the gun. Apologies all round. Just a quick edit to say that this was never about wanting more money, I had wrongly assumed that people had been misled. Edited April 17, 2016 by leschirons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 Don't you just love a happy ending..? Thanks for the update; glad there's one less bar steward on Earth than some of us thought..! Oh, hang on a minute... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 Ya big loaf! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SICbass Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1460853665' post='3029380'] Ya big loaf! [/quote] Loaf? What a very excellent expletive. Glad to hear that you got it satisfactorily resolved - result! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted April 17, 2016 Share Posted April 17, 2016 [quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1460765910' post='3028663'] Just got in from a gig. A long trip and not much money but we enjoy the place. Great crowd, up for it from start to finish. We're aware of how much the owner pays as a maximum (lower than our usual fee) but we agree to do it as it's fun. However, tonight was a little different. It was a great night and we see the owner (he's a Brit) passing round a glass, collecting "for the band" At the end of the night, we get paid our usual fee and for me, therein lies a problem. Had he not collected any money "for the band" I would have been perfectly happy with my smaller than usual, but agreed upon fee but the people putting notes into the glass were obviously under the impression that the band would benefit from it yet only the owner has because, his contribution to the cost of the band is now much smaller. He was collecting for him, not us. I see this as immoral and dishonest and no different from collecting charity donations and then keeping it. I have just told the band that I will not play there again but obviously if they want to, they can use a dep. This isn't about the money at all. It's the principle and the fact that at age 64, I no longer wish to deal with, or need to spend any time with dishonourable w***ers. [/quote] name that venue please - particularly on twitter and facebook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leschirons Posted April 17, 2016 Author Share Posted April 17, 2016 [quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1460880033' post='3029430'] name that venue please - particularly on twitter and facebook [/quote] Read my last post. All resolved. 100% at fault on my part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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